Norse Lineman skill?

[Craigtw]

I just shudder at the thought of giving a guy a 60% TV increase to make him 33% less likely to get hurt.

Yet you will give extra arms or two heads to a gutter runner just to give him a +16% chance to do what he needs to do in very limited situations?

[mattgslater]

And when the mutation works, it frequently leads to a TD.

BTW, when changing a 3+ to a 2+, you're decreasing your odds of failure by 50%, which is the proper comparison to make. The 16.67% chance of using the skill compares to 13.89% on AV8, the chance of rolling an 8 on 2d6. And the AV point, even when it does its thing, saves you 1/6 of a cas, 1/4th of a KO, and 7/12 of an action. Something? Yes. Worth a large-but-hard-to-measure fraction of a TD? No.

Tellin' ya, man. AV increases are for centerpiece figures. Give the schmoes more utility. Now if he rolls a second 10, that's another story.

If you take MA, give him Pro at 16 SPP and use him as a blitzer, or Sure Hands and use him as a retriever. If you take AV, go Fend.

[Smeborg]

On a roll of 6,4 I would take +1AV on a Norse Lino. And for a first normal skill advance, I would take Fend.

I follow a similar policy on my Nurgle side, where I give the Rotters +1AV on a 6,4 (I use them typically on the line os scrimmage in defense). By far the longest surviving Rotter was the one with AV9. He reached the dizzy heights of 27 SPPs before he was topped - a record for me.

A Norse Lineman with +1AV or Fend (or ideally both), is a great resource to have on the LOS in defense - he will survive and give you numbers on the board for those crucial first few turns of counter-attack.

I do not like the idea of +1MA, as the place for a Norse Lino is on the LOS. Who else are you going to put there?

Hope this helps.

[GreedySmurf]

Have to agree with a +1 AV.

The stats might say it's only a 33% increase, but the number of times that extra AV will save your butt is amazing. I have a liney on my Norse team -he lucked out with a Double later in his career, so I now have a Fend, Dodge, AV8 lineman. He frustrates the bejesus out of my opponents.

As for the rest of the liney's, if normal rolls and looking at your league I'd go Fend mainly. Don't underestimate the spoiling effect of three fending lineman on the LoS, particularly against slower teams. One DP is always nice too

[mattgslater]

The stats might say it's only a 33% increase, but the number of times that extra AV will save your butt is amazing. I have a liney on my Norse team -he lucked out with a Double later in his career, so I now have a Fend, Dodge, AV8 lineman. He frustrates the bejesus out of my opponents.

Yeah. That could happen, but it's still anecdotal. For every "AV8 saved me" story, there are precisely two "I took AV8 and got hurt anyway" stories.

But let's talk about that AV8 Blodger you've got. Dodge reduces his chance of falling down by 45%, which is like 1.4 times what the AV does, plus almost half an action in the avoided knockdown and almost half a retained tackle zone. It can be negated by a G skill rather than a Mutation, sure, but it also allows re-rolls on failed dodges, which allows moves that other players can't take.

[Ullis]

I have to say that matt's math alone convinces me. Additionally, the Norse team only has two MA7 positionals so a new MA7 player would add something real to the team, whereas on the casualty and KO count I imagine that he will not make a major impact.

Having MA7 players is crucial to making a fast TD in two or three turns. For that to happen as a bare minimum you need someone in scoring range. That range varies a lot between MA7 and MA6. A MA6 player needs a minimum of one GFI to make it in two turns, whereas a MA7 player can make it without GFI's but can also be farther away from the end zone. After having a potential scorer you need players screening him and creating space for the scorer to reach the end zone. MA7 makes a huge difference here. Even if you're going to score with a MA6 guy, screening him with MA7 players is much more efficient.

Norse is a slow team. Fast individual players change that, just look at Undead and Necro teams.

Norse is also a fragile team. One player with +AV won't change that.

[grampyseer]

I'm not sure a single lino with the av will give you a noticeable result in the same way the movement will.

I'd probably pick the av on a blitzer, but it's not like your linos are either expensive, or in need of 3 advances to do their job.


...If you'd rolled 2-3 10's on lineman all at once, I'd take the opportunity to beef your line, but it's kind of hard to plan long term for that.

[voyagers_uk]

I knew you guys would come around to my way of thinking

[Funksultan]

I know I'm in the minority here, but I like the AV.

Odd comparison, but if you're choosing between the 2 stats, you're looking at becoming either a human lineman (with block) or a skaven linerat (with block).

All things considered, I'd go with the human lineman. Norse start out as a very bashy team, and early on, AV will help ya hang in there against people who are gonna try to take it to you.

If we're talking about an already developed team... I'd probably take the MA. It opens up options for you late in a team's life, but early on, I'd stick to the meat and potatoes.

D

[Carnis]

The skaven liner with block vs human liner with block applies.

It's true adding a single AV8 player will not make your team more resilient overall (you will still need 13-14 players). BUT, it will make one of your LOS players almost 33% more resilient. Why does this matter then?

For many teams Blood Bowl is more than anything about how fast you can reduce your opponents numbers from starting 11 to a lower figure in each half. The whole playbook on "conservative bloodbowl" rolls over getting the max # of 2die blocks, taking all the block you can get and blocking to reduce opponent liberties and opposing players.

So adding those AV8 human liners while not gamebreaking, WILL prolong your team's halflife on the pitch. If you systematically take AV every time a lineman levels and rolls 6+4, your team will suffer less CAS, less KO and will thus have a longer "half life" on the pitch. Allowing you to play on a level playing field for a longer time (or even win the killing war if you've got professional snow trolls/berzerkers).

If I got a lino with AV8, I'd get guard, not dodge.. Similarily if I had taken MA I'd pick dodge.. But that's just my personal preference.

[mattgslater]

If the average game goes 4 drives and the average KO goes 2 drives, a KO is half a BH. If an SI is two BHs, a stat loss 3 and a kill 4 (arbitrary, I know), then a casualty is 2x BH. So a Cas is worth 4x a KO. An Injury roll is worth 1/4 KO plus (4x1/6) 2/3 KO = 11/12 KO, plus 7/12 of a stun. By contrast, a quick score is worth 1/2 KO for each KO player, plus 1 TD and 3 SPP. How much does one AV8 guy insulate you from injury rolls? 3%. How much does +1 AV add to your quick score potential?

[Darkson]

Odd comparison, but if you're choosing between the 2 stats, you're looking at becoming either a human lineman (with block) or a skaven linerat (with block).

All things considered, I'd go with the human lineman. Norse start out as a very bashy team, and early on, AV will help ya hang in there against people who are gonna try to take it to you.

While that is true, you need to remember that a Skaven team is all MA7+ - it's not like the Norse team is well-endowed with MA. I'm with Grampyseer - if you rolled 2 or 3 10's at a time, I'd take the AV in a heartbeat, but as the only one to get a skill, I'd take the MA.

[Jural]

I think the main problem is that +MA or +AV only comes up 2/36 advance permutations (because 5+5 should be guard or dodge.) So you can't really plan on acquiring a lot of AV 8 teamwide, even if you choose to go that way.

Because of that, I favor +MA. If I could get 3 or 4 +AV lineman or blitzers on my Norse team, I'd take it. But seeing as that's an average of 60+ advances on those players before it comes to pass, I don't think it works.

So instead of taking it as a teamwide strategy to increase effectiveness, you need to look at the individual player, and I think +MA (and arguably Fend as well) are more effective than +AV.

[mattgslater]

Another question is how you run your positionals and what they look like. With 2 Runners, a Berserker, 2 Ulfs and a ST in your backfield, and a Berserker on the line, there's room for precisely two linemen off the LOS. The other one is your kicker. That lets you put a SF/Guard Berserker on the line or in a wing and still build one as a hunter. If you like a Safety Runner, give this guy Fend next, but I'd build my MA7 lino as a safety instead, with Pro next, then Tackle, or maybe Tackle, then Shadowing, and use the Runner as a vehicle for Blodge/SS.

If you don't give yourself room for two linos in the backfield, use this guy as an offensive piece and a backup on D. In that case, when he gets to 16 give him Sure Hands.

[Craigtw]

If the average game goes 4 drives and the average KO goes 2 drives, a KO is half a BH. If an SI is two BHs, a stat loss 3 and a kill 4 (arbitrary, I know), then a casualty is 2x BH. So a Cas is worth 4x a KO. An Injury roll is worth 1/4 KO plus (4x1/6) 2/3 KO = 11/12 KO, plus 7/12 of a stun. By contrast, a quick score is worth 1/2 KO for each KO player, plus 1 TD and 3 SPP. How much does one AV8 guy insulate you from injury rolls? 3%. How much does +1 AV add to your quick score potential?

My brain hurts..... Math ruins Blood Bowl!