Dump-Off & Pass Block

[cpatrol]

Assuming that the player taking the action (Blitz or Block) cannot Pass Block, there can't be any Shadowing, for which it was stated that you can only Shadow the player taking an action.

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Hmm... so if a player taking a Pass Action Diving Tackles a Pass Blocker (no idea why he might want to do that..) and hence move out of his own square, the thrower can then be shadowed?

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Just curious.. has anyone managed a OTS made possible from pass blocking a dump off?

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If a player moves into the EZ during the Blitz! from a kickoff and catches the landing ball, do the turn counters move at all? It isn't exactly scoring in your opponent's turn if the ball lands before his turn can begin, I gather.

[tenwit]

Hmm... so if a player taking a Pass Action Diving Tackles a Pass Blocker (no idea why he might want to do that..) and hence move out of his own square, the thrower can then be shadowed?

No. Even if it was possible to interrupt your own throw (and it shouldn't be, because you're in the middle of it), and you did decide to use DT, you still never move. You are placed prone in the square that the pass blocker leaves, but you don't move to it. Similarly, you don't have to dodge to DT.

[whitetiger]

Hmm... so if a player taking a Pass Action Diving Tackles a Pass Blocker (no idea why he might want to do that..) and hence move out of his own square, the thrower can then be shadowed?

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Just curious.. has anyone managed a OTS made possible from pass blocking a dump off?

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If a player moves into the EZ during the Blitz! from a kickoff and catches the landing ball, do the turn counters move at all? It isn't exactly scoring in your opponent's turn if the ball lands before his turn can begin, I gather.

This whole thing is just getting off the wall. But I can see that. A wood elf, one turn TD player goes down field on a blitz to start the game, goes downfield, grabs the ball and goes in for the score. Niether turn marker has moved. The opponant player goes outside and rams his head into a wall.

Now, on with the next question. HE Player blitzes a DE thrower, DE thrower declares dump off, HE player #2 declares pass block, DE blitzer throws diving tackle on HE pass blocker. Pass blocker goes down. Ends turn?

I'd say yes, but this whole thing is getting a bit convoluted.

[tenwit]

That was the first question answered. Failing a dodge due to being DTed is exactly the same as failing a dodge any other way.

[Thetian]

The rules already allow for events "in motion" to resolve. Otherwise once a turnover occurred the ball would stop moving.

A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further
actions that turn, and any action being taken ends immediately
even if it was only partially completed. Make armour and injury
rolls for players that were knocked down, and if the ball was
dropped then roll to see where it bounces too normally. Stunned
players should be turned face up, and then the opposing coach
may start to take their turn.

Sounds like as soon as the failed dodge occurs due to Pass Block, The turn is over, with the exception of armor,injury and scatter/bounce rolls.

Though I can intellectually appreciate the push/pop stack analogy, it doesn't apply to Bloodbowl. A turnover=turn is over. This view that the dump-off is resolved and then the block is resolved is contradictory to the rules. I see the sequence as:

1. declare block
2. opponent declares Dump-off. measurements are made etc.
3. Pass Block player declare intention to move.
4. PB player dodges and fails. TURNOVER
5. Armour and injury rolls are made for PB player.

Another example would be a GFI to blitz a Dump-off player. If the player failed the GFI, would the Dump-off player still have to pass the ball?

By the concept of "out-of-sequence" push/pop logic presented. The Dump-off player would have to pass the ball. I don't see any verbage to that effect in the Dump-off description or in any of the FAQs.

Just my $.02 worth.

[GalakStarscraper]

Another example would be a GFI to blitz a Dump-off player. If the player failed the GFI, would the Dump-off player still have to pass the ball?

By the concept of "out-of-sequence" push/pop logic presented. The Dump-off player would have to pass the ball. I don't see any verbage to that effect in the Dump-off description or in any of the FAQs.

Except for the fact that the block is not thrown until you do the GFI first. Which means Pass Block is not declared until after we see how the GFI resolved. So no ... you would not have to Dump Off if a blitzer failed his GFI because you would have never used the skill in the first place.

Galak

[tenwit]

It's a bit like the oddness of the interception ordering: just because the dice weren't thrown for the pass doesn't mean that the pass hasn't happened. The thrower did throw the ball that got intercepted. Similarly for this case, the blitzer did throw the block that forced the dump-off, the target did pass the ball that got dumped off.. just because the pass blocker had to roll the dice before the other two guys doesn't mean that those other two guys didn't actually block and dump-off.

[DoubleSkulls]

Shadowing (General)
The player may use this skill when a player performing an Action on the opposing team moves out of any of his tackle zones for any reason.

Am I reading too much into the capitalization on the word Action? Pass block and shadowing are skills not Actions. If I am reading this correctly the only Actions shadowable are Move Block Blitz Pass Hand-Off and Foul. Would love a clarification on this.

Thanks for reminding me that we cleaned that one up!

[Thetian]

[Except for the fact that the block is not thrown until you do the GFI first. Which means Pass Block is not declared until after we see how the GFI resolved. So no ... you would not have to Dump Off if a blitzer failed his GFI because you would have never used the skill in the first place.

OK, I can live with that because it still is in line with the turnover rule. My point still stands that the turnover rule is quite clear

A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further
actions that turn, and any action being taken ends immediately
even if it was only partially completed

Fail the dodge when pass-blocking (during your own turn), a turnover results. Hand the dice to your opponent.

To me, completing the other actions that lead up to the turnover creates a loophole to a rule that seems very straight-forward. A loophole that can only be defended by applying logic that doesn't exist in any other situation in the game.

Some could say that this is a weird break in the "logical" sequence of play just like interceptions. The difference is that the rulebook comes right out and plainly says that the interception rule is an exception that is necessary for game abstraction.

I think what causes this mess is the idea that the Dump-off, once started, MUST be completed. I can agree that having a coach announce he is using Dump-off and not going through with it should not be encouraged (or allowed), but the moving coach is the one that incurred the additional risk of dodging to try to hinder the dump-off not the coach that has the player using Dump-off. It could be said that the coach using Dump-off had every intention of going through with the action. His opponent just didn't let him by causing a turnover.

I think I have run up more than my usual $.02 fee for rules-lawyering. But creating another exception to the turnover rule to force all dump-off actions to take place doesn't seem advantagious to the game and can only lead to "rules-bloat".

[Jural]

Ok, what happens when a player with Dump Off and Diving Tackle is blitzed, and a player in his tackle zone attempts to pass block away to put a tackle zone on the receiver instead of the thrower?

I'm not saying it's an interesting rules question, only that it is the most convoluted question I can make at the moment

For the record, I guess the ball scatters from the diving tackler's square and the blitz and the throw never get attempted (even if the pass blocker succeeds in his dodge attempt.)

I might just try out a Dark Elf runner and give him diving tackle to try this out... I figure after 100 games played, it may come up once

[cpatrol]

I think the most consistent way to rule the Pass-Block-a-Dump-Off situation is that the failure of any pass block ends the turn, just like how a failed gfi for the blitz mean that the block isn't carried out.

Also, like how a interception roll takes place between the declaration of a pass and the pass roll, the pass block move(s) and dump off takes place between the declaration of the block/blitz and the rolling of the block dice. If there is a turnover from any of the situations, we exit the nested sequence by going straight to the end of the turn.

Only things like ball scattering and armour/injury rolls need to be made when a turnover occurs.

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The special move is free, and in no way affects the player’s ability to move in the following turn

This may have to be reworded.

Firstly, when pass blocking on opponent's turn, if he falls over for any reason, he will have to use 3 MA to get up in the following turn, and thus 'affecting the player's ability to move'. While it ought to be obvious, a rules-lawyering coach may insist on starting his next turn with his player standing since 'the rulebook said so'.

Secondly, the 'in the following turn' does not cover the dump-off-pass-block, which takes place in the current turn. I believe that if the pass blocker hasn't moved in his team turn, he can still move his full movement if he doesn't fall over.

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Hmm... so if a player taking a Pass Action Diving Tackles a Pass Blocker (no idea why he might want to do that..) and hence move out of his own square, the thrower can then be shadowed?

No. Even if it was possible to interrupt your own throw (and it shouldn't be, because you're in the middle of it), and you did decide to use DT, you still never move. You are placed prone in the square that the pass blocker leaves, but you don't move to it. Similarly, you don't have to dodge to DT.

Shadowing (General)
The player may use this skill when a player performing an Action on the opposing team moves out of any of his tackle zones for any reason.

My idea was to have the player taking the action moving out of his tackle zone for another reason other than dodging or follow up(which is shadowable as well). So my understanding of this was yes.

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one turn TD player goes down field on a blitz to start the game, goes downfield, grabs the ball and goes in for the score.

The ball lands only at the end of the blitz, hence the need for the player to be waiting for the ball in the EZ (Diving Catch may help with that).
Incidentally, although he needs to be outside a TZ at the start of the blitz, he can start one square back and get a chainpush if he has sidestep and a frenzy teammate.

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Ok, what happens when a player with Dump Off and Diving Tackle is blitzed, and a player in his tackle zone attempts to pass block away to put a tackle zone on the receiver instead of the thrower?

For the record, I guess the ball scatters from the diving tackler's square and the blitz and the throw never get attempted (even if the pass blocker succeeds in his dodge attempt.)

I agree, and will like to add that I think that if the pass blocker dodges out successfully, he must still attempt to end up in a 'legal pass block position' as if the thrower hadn't tried the DT. Also, the blitzing/blocking player ends his action there, even though he hasn't rolled the block dice.

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Perhaps it may seem a waste of time coming up with these examples, but I would like to think that we're helping clear up possible inconsistencies within the current rule set.
Wonder how the folks making the game are coping with exception handling..

[GalakStarscraper]

A loophole that can only be defended by applying logic that doesn't exist in any other situation in the game.

Ever play almost any CCG ... if you have these situations happen all the time.

Galak

[GalakStarscraper]

Only things like ball scattering and armour/injury rolls need to be made when a turnover occurs.

Huh?

Okay look ... many I'm argumentative today ... but WHY do I do those things and not complete the block or the dump off?

Sorry... don't buy it and would personally rule against.

Think its two rare an event to change the rulebook for and once again go back to league commish ruling.

Ian and I already gave you our BBRC take. You close out items "in motion" (which does not include new player's doing things) and the turn ends.

And if that answer seems strong armed ... its only because I'm seeing folks on this thread seemingly suggesting how the rules should get changed. I'm not disrespecting anyone and the overall discussion ... I welcome the discussion! So I'm just letting you know ... I have no interest at all at changing rules for this one.

Galak

[whitetiger]

I do have one quick question on this just for clarification.

When a player declares a blitz against a player with the ball and the dump off skill, is the dump off worked out immediately before the blitzing player approaches, or is the blitzing player placed in the square next to the dump off player and thus exerting a tackle zone on the passer for purposes of the pass?

[GalakStarscraper]

or is the blitzing player placed in the square next to the dump off player and thus exerting a tackle zone on the passer for purposes of the pass?

This one.

Galak