Passive TD while being pushed back by a frenzy player?

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:28 am

Hi,

this discussion came up in our league:
Is it a TD if a player holding the ball is pushed back in the opponents EZ with the intention to make a second (frenzy) block and push the ball carrier out of bonds?

Some other guys said yes and referred to LRB p. 16 "a player holding the ball could be pushed into the EZ by a block, [...] then the team scores a TD"

I said no, bc IMO a TD is given only when the action of the active player (=the pusher) has ended. Else it would be a TD when you push somebody in the EZ with strip ball, or have a POW result (block, push, falls down, ball scatters) on a ball holder in front of a EZ etc. It's not enough to say he must enter the EZ with the ball, he must stick to it after the action that is being carried out IMHO.

What do you think?

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:32 am

I'd say yes... but then the bit about Strip Ball confuses me.

Martyn

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:32 am

Personally I think it should be a TD.

But I also agree with your push-back argument. Seems like a very confusing situation ...

Post by **Old Man Draco** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:51 am

I would say it's a TD. Frenzy gives the pusher the option to make multiple blocks in a row, but a block in itself is an action, therefor after the first block, an action has ended and a new action could start. After that first action the player holding the ball in the EZ will be there at the end of an action and it's a TD.

Any off the Guruz have a comment on this?

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:56 am

Well, I know what you mean, but rulewise any player may do only "one" action in his turn, so a frenzy-double block counts as only one action (like pass, foul, move etc.) Maybe you should talk of "action sequence" instead ??? But we shouldn't introduce new technical terms that aren't part of the BB rules...

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:57 am

Just from my gut-feeling it should be a TD ...

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:03 am

Yep, the feeling sounds right, but what about the two examples I've given (strip ball etc.)

Maybe we could say "it's a touchdown after a player is pushed in the EZ and the corresponding block is resolved". That would make a frenzy-push result in a TD, but a strip ball push and a POW-push not.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:06 am

Isn't this one of the questions on this years hotlist?

Post by **Old Man Draco** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:09 am

Like it. It would clarify a lot.

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:19 am

It is on the hotlist

But due to another reason:

"A team scores a touchdown when one of their players ends an action standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the football.
to
"A team scores a touchdown when one of their players is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the football at the end of any player's action."
Currently under the rules, a TTM pass of a player that has already moved into the endzone and chain pushing a player that has already moved into the endzones are not TDs, and they should be.

Ok, under the current rules it says it's a TD "when one of their players ends an action standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the football"

It says nothing about the opponents action has to end? So if we can assume that this "action has to be ended" refers to the active player regardless of team membership and the second block of a frenzy belongs to the Block "action"? If yes, then a frenzy-push does not result ina TD (???)

campaigner · Post by **campaigner** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:34 am

I'd say that when a player is standing in the EZ with the ball he scores a TD.
the thing with the "end of one player's action" can be a bit confusing though when it was the first push of a frenzy player.

I think it's quite clear that it's no TD with Strip Ball or a knockdown... for me and my common sense at least.

c

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:41 am

That's the point:

Strip ball/knockdown is not an issue (it's too obvious)

but being pushed after the first frenzly-block is confusing indeed.

take this similar example: a witch-elf holding the ball is blitzing into the opponent's End Zone, pushes the opponent sideways away and enters the Endzone. Touchdown? or does she has to throw the second frenzy-block before a TD is given, risking a TO or even her leaving the EZ again (=sidestep) (remember the ruling says that a player scores at the end of his/her action).

Confusing...

campaigner · Post by **campaigner** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:50 am

narkotic wrote:That's the point:

Strip ball/knockdown is not an issue (it's too obvious)

but being pushed after the first frenzly-block is confusing indeed.

take this similar example: a witch-elf holding the ball is blitzing into the opponent's End Zone, pushes the opponent sideways away and enters the Endzone. Touchdown? or does she has to throw the second frenzy-block before a TD is given, risking a TO or even her leaving the EZ again (=sidestep) (remember the ruling says that a player scores at the end of his/her action).

Confusing...

confusing indeed, mr. watson

up until 5 minutes ago I didn't know a TD occured exactly at the end of an action, so I'd have said it's a TD if someone manages to get the ball into the EZ.

but, to be honest, the frenzy thing has not happened in any of my games yet.

c

HotsalZa · Post by **HotsalZa** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:56 am

I see it both ways

the player with the ball is pushed so hard that he walks(falls) whatever trough the endzone wich is a TD but keeps on falling so that he still can fall out of bounds since the action is still going on.

campaigner · Post by **campaigner** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:04 am

HotsalZa wrote:I see it both ways
the player with the ball is pushed so hard that he walks(falls) whatever trough the endzone wich is a TD but keeps on falling so that he still can fall out of bounds since the action is still going on.

yes, but in soccer for example it's still a goal even if the ball is pushed out immediately or if the keeper holds it...

I'm not sure but in American football it's a TD if he runs through the EZ, isn't it (sorry, I'm totally not in the know concerning football)