Chaos Chosen Team

no_dice · Post by **no_dice** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:01 pm

This is an alternate choas team I've been working on for a while. It hasn't been play tested yet because I've been a little undecided about exactly what I want to do with it... But I just had a major brainstorm today and this is what I came up with. Any pointers, suggestions, criticisms, etc. are of course very welcome... so enough with the hub-bub... here is the chaos chosen team:

0-12 Chaos Underlings General 40k
6 3 2 9 No Skills

0-4 Chosen Blockers General, Strength, Physical 110k
4 4 1 9 Tentacles, Prehensile Tail, Thick Skull

0-2 Chosen Blitzers General, Strength, Physical 90k
6 3 3 8 Frenzy, Dauntless, Horns

0-2 Chosen Runners General, Agility, Physical 90k
8 2 3 7 Big Hand, Two Heads, Nerves of Steel

Apothecary: YES
Re-roll Counters: 70k
Big Guy Allies: Minotaur, Ogre, Troll

So what do you think?
Any and all comments are welcome and appreciated

thanks
-ND

no_dice · Post by **no_dice** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:35 pm

how come noone has anything to say about my team?

I feel so unloved

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:03 pm

If you go to http://www.midgardbb.com/BloodBowlPlayers.html you'll find some guidelines on building new teams.

I haven't ran the figures, but at a guess I'd say the Blitzers and runners are under-costed (probably by a big margin), and maybe the blockers to.

Nice idea though. Maybe lose some of the starting traits?

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:31 pm

I would drop the runners mv by one. Probably also lose the nerves of steel. Not sure i like someone starting with horns and dauntless.

duff · Post by **duff** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:33 am

This sort of appeals in a similar nich to my "new team concept" post. The players seem like they could do their job very well but be bad at covering other roles. How does it play?
I suspect it may be a little strong. Very powerful on defence and the runners would be trick to prevent from a 2 turn td, popping out of the cage from a long way out.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:50 am

Well ... I pulled out all the books to look at what you tried to do.

I ran it through the two team building tools at blood-bowl.net

Now the first set of tools:
http://www.midgardbb.com/NewBBTeamBuildingGuide.html

Okay using this set of rules ... the team passes the balance test.

In fact, I have to give you MAJOR credit no_dice ... this team passed ALL 14 of the team building points on this site. Which is why you didn't see a flood of folks saying NO WAY ... okay so you did your homework.

Okay, so you got past my hurdle for new team building ... but in order to pass mustard with me you ALSO have to get over the Pink Horror hurdle.

http://blood-bowl.net/JervisRules/teamanalysis.zip

Now Pink Horror's spreadsheet incorporates a lot of the qualities of the 14 building points BUT also looks at what skills you mixed together. Based on those skills it comes up with several point values:

So from Pinky's spreadsheet your team above comes out:
Blocking: 103.35 (Dwarves max at 100.45 for comparison)
Throwing: 46.71 (Wood Elves max at 74.94)
Running: 51.79 (Wood Elves max at 92.87)
Potential: 90.46 (Chaos max at 84.09)
Price: 48.03 (Amazon max at 57.83)
POWER: 82.54 (Wood Elves max at 79.91)
VALUE: 66.59 (Chaos Dwarves max at 76.54)

Now here is the kicker ... in order for a team to be seriously considered by me it must met two criteria on Pinky's spreadsheet:
1) Power cannot exceed 80
2) Value cannot exceed 80
3) Power+Value cannot exceed 152

So on Pinky's new team tests you passed on 2 and 3 ... but not 1 ... so you need a tweak. Your blocking and potential scores were also just too high for me.

So I tried a few tweaks brought the team down.
Blocker loses Prehensile Tail and becomes 100k
Blitzer loses Frenzy and becomes 80k
Runner goes to MA 7 and becomes 80k

This changes your blocking number to 89.45, your potential to 81.29, your Power to 73.82, and your Value to 60.03. Which makes the team very similar to the Dwarf team in terms of these 4 values.

So that would be my feedback for getting your team in balance. Hope this helps.

Galak

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 4:00 am

Just out of curiosity I ran the new Elf team through Pinky's sheet using the Catch, Neves of Steel Catcher.

It came out very well ... Power 69.94 ... Value 49.77. However they are the new kings of Throwing with a score of 80.52. But that's the way it should be. Wood Elves should not be king of both the Throw and Run categories like they are. Having High Elves (ie the new Elves) be king of the throw is how its supposed to work.

So that makes we feel good about the new team.

Galak

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:56 am

GalakStarscraper wrote:Which is why you didn't see a flood of folks saying NO WAY ...

I guess more often than not, silence is a sign that there is little negative to be said on the design in question.
Personally, I consider it to be a bit too good - my idea of new teams is that they should initially at least be a bit on the weak side, and then make improvements if the team doesn't work at all.

BAD:
New team introduced to the league and it trashes every team that it face. After dominating the league for one season, the team is toned down.

BETTER:
New team introduced to the league and it finishes below halflings in the ladder. Improvements are made to the team design before next season.

duff · Post by **duff** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:09 am

[quote="Mestari
BAD:
New team introduced to the league and it trashes every team that it face. After dominating the league for one season, the team is toned down.

BETTER:
New team introduced to the league and it finishes below halflings in the ladder. Improvements are made to the team design before next season.[/quote]

Seconded.

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:44 am

Agree entirely...

Thats what happened with our dwarf slayer team - (eh Morph... morph??)

morph · Post by **morph** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:15 am

I thought I told you noodle that the Dwarf Slayer Team was never to be spoken of again...

sigh... Ag2, Av7, yet still so expensive.... possibly the worst team ever and some people complained it was too good!

no_dice · Post by **no_dice** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:46 pm

OK, I'll tone teh guys back a little bit... starting with three traits is a little much... how 'bout we go with:

0-12 Underlings 40K G
6 3 2 9 None

0-4 Blockers 100K G, S, PH
4 4 1 9 Tentacles, Prehensile Tail

0-2 Blitzers 70K G, S, PH
6 3 3 8 Frenzy, Horns

0-2 Runners 80K G, A, PH
8 2 3 7 Big Hand, Two Heads

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:54 pm

No_dice ... run it through Pink Horror spreadsheet and let me know what you get for Blocking and Power .... I'm concerned that the team is still too good on these two items. Those Blockers are just too much. Look at my suggest for changes and let me know.

Galak

no_dice · Post by **no_dice** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:10 pm

blocking is just above 100 (like 102.xx)
and power is 80.89

I don't have the spreadsheet in front of me right now, but I ran them through earlier and that's how they came out, as a note I also raised the blockers prices to 110k.

I really like the blockers the way they are, I down graded everyone from 3 traits to 2 and I don't know what else to give them if I take PT off.

options are: thick skull, foul appearance or stand firm
I don't want to take foul appearance because it would make them too much like rotters, I don't like thick skull because it's just a kinda weak skill choice and I think stand firm would keep them just as strong if not make them stronger...

any other thoughts?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:39 pm

no_dice wrote:blocking is just above 100 (like 102.xx)
and power is 80.89

IE your team is still too powerful just like I thought it would be.

I don't like thick skull because it's just a kinda weak skill choice

But the whole point is that you've grabbed too many good skills, you need to have some weaker choices to balance the team. The original blocker had PTail, Tent, and TSkull ... drop PTail and he's a lot better player.

Your revised changes just make the team still too powerful.

Galak