Sidestep: Pbem version overpowered?

[Deathwing]

Just played/playing a game where Sidestepping skinks have been a right royal pain in the ass.
The commonly used version of sidestep reads as follows (taken from the MBBL site):

"Side Step is changed. Side Step reads for PBeM: A player with this skill is so quick that he can frequently step out of the way of a block. As a result, he may completely ignore PUSH BACK results from the block dice, and a KNOCK DOWN result always knocks the player over in the square he started in (ya just clipped him). In addition, this means that the trait Frenzy will not work against this player as a Push Back result indicates that the blocker/blitzer missed with his attempt to hit the player."

That makes Sidestep almost as good as Stand Firm ( you can never be pushed into the crowd ), with the exception that you don't get the 'free dodge' . (Countering this however, Frenzy doesn't work against Sidesteppers).
Now consider that Stand Firm requires a double to get, and then is only accessible to those with ST access. Sidestep however, is available to anybody with AG access and anybody at all on a double. So we have an easily accessible skill that's damn near as good as a ST only trait.

I found it a particular problem facing multiple Sidestep/Stunty players.
Consider this (simplified) diagram:


B is the ball carrier, A and C are Sidestepping Skinks/Gobbos/'Flings.
Now on the tabletop, a Blitz either with the ball carrier or from elsewhere on A or C (or indeed a Block from another adjacent player) which results in a push or Splat/Dodge leaves (with a follow up if Blitzing out with player B) one dodge roll to get out. The same result in Pbem leaves a dodge into a tackle zone and then the same dodge into a clear square to achieve the same. Now if player B were to be blitzing out, a clear Splat! on the tabletop would allow the follow up and away without rolling the dodge. In Pbem A or C would go down in the square they're in and you still have to make that dodge roll (and effectively lose a square of movement in the process).

My thoughts: the Pbem version of Sidestep is waaaay better than the tabletop version, is damn near as good as Stand Firm and is much more readily accessible. As such I believe it is overpowered (particularly when combined with Stunty (and let's face it, it's a commonly taken skill for Stunty players on a normal roll!) and used in multiples.

Thoughts from Pbemers?

[GalakStarscraper]

Father Tim is arguing the same thing, DW.

There are two options that I'll consider.

1) PBeM Side Step becomes a trait
2) PBeM Side Step moves the player into a RANDOM unoccupied square adjacent to the Side Step player. In which case, it would become a right click Target Player option. You'll pick Side Step and he'll automatically be scattered to random adjacent empty square.

My concern was that #2 made the skill such that no one would take it. If you think they still would ... then you'll be agreeing with Father Tim and I will conceed the change to better minds than mine and make the change in the next version of the program after GenCon.

Galak

[Grumbledook]

how come sidestep was changed anyway its a great skill as it stands in the rulebook?

[Dark Lord (retired)]

It was changed for time considerations.
If I push your player back and he has side step, I would have to save the game, mail it to you, have you preform one action and then mail it back to me so i can finish my turn. If you had several side step players this could quickly become a loooooooooooooong process and really mess up your thought process on the turn.

I think the random option is fine. I don't know if it would stop me from taking it...because I run bashy teams and don't usually take it, any way.
The trait option would bug me a little bit because it would stop alot of linemen and stuff from getting it.

Tough one.

Could you program it to work similar to diving tackle and shadowing? With "prefered" squares and all things being equal it would just be random?

[SBG]

I think it's been changed to make sure turns don't take 5 days to be played!

Imagine an elf team with many sidesteppers: everytime you push back or POW/Dodge someone, you'd have to send the file only so your opponent can place his downed player (sometimes, only to find out that he really belonged in the Dead and Injured section...).

Now, I wouldn't mind the long turns, but if the only options allowed are those suggested by Galak, I,d c¸hoose the random one, with a little twist that would allow you to stay close to the ball carrier when possible.

Fred

[SBG]

Too much time to reply to Grumbledook!! DL beat me !

Fred

[Darkson]

Yeah, when you consider that on the MBBL2 snotling team all the snotlings have Sidestep, then if you played the LRB rules I doubt even Galak'll have the patience to finish a game with them

I'd vote for the random square option if some sort of checj could be added (eg if next to EZ while holding ball the auto in, won't stand next to opposistion player if an empty square out of a TZ is available, that sort of thing).

[GalakStarscraper]

I'd vote for the random square option if some sort of checj could be added (eg if next to EZ while holding ball the auto in, won't stand next to opposistion player if an empty square out of a TZ is available, that sort of thing).

Okay so random with a preference ranker like the Interception algorithim.

Okay so if you had Side Step what would be the order of preference.

1) Side Step to a touchdown square
2) Side Step to become adjacent to the ball carrier regardless of which team has the ball (in case more than one #2 square qualifies ... pick the one that is in the least # of opposing TZs)
3) Side Step to a square that isn't in the TZ of an opponent but is in the TZ of one of your players.
4) Side Step to a square that isn't in the TZ of an opponent but has none of your players adjacent.
5) Side Step to a square in an opponent's TZ.

Analyze all 8 possible squares and rank them from #1 to #5.
In case more than one square ties at any of the points, then random from them. BTW, Dirty Kick already works like this in the PBeM program so I should be able to bastardize that code to make this work.

Anyone else have any adds to the algorithim?

Galak

[GalakStarscraper]

how come sidestep was changed anyway its a great skill as it stands in the rulebook?

Diving Tackle, Shadowing, and Side Step are all changed for PBeM games so that you don't have to ask your opponent what they want to do.

Galak

[Dark Lord (retired)]

What do you mean by "in case more than one #2 square qualifies") Am I reading this wrong or are you referring to multiple ball carriers? Or did you mean #1 square?


Also you maye want to have a seperate list if the side stepper is the ball carrier.

[tchatter]

I like the algorithim option for sidestep, that would work perfectly, as the interception one now chooses the same guy I would 99.9% of the time. So I think that the sidestep would work this way as well.

Shadowing - I think that it could be simplified to work the same as in the rulebook, much like the 'dice offs' on Kick Off results.

Diving Tackle - Same as the int and sidestep, works fine the way it is.

[High & Mighty]

Father Tim is arguing the same thing, DW.

There are two options that I'll consider.

1) PBeM Side Step becomes a trait
2) PBeM Side Step moves the player into a RANDOM unoccupied square adjacent to the Side Step player. In which case, it would become a right click Target Player option. You'll pick Side Step and he'll automatically be scattered to random adjacent empty square.

My concern was that #2 made the skill such that no one would take it. If you think they still would ... then you'll be agreeing with Father Tim and I will conceed the change to better minds than mine and make the change in the next version of the program after GenCon.

Galak

As a coach of a PBEM gobbo and lizard team (the latter being the culprit in this case), I think it's more of an issue for lizard teams than gobbos or elves. The stunties start with dodge and, lacking access to block, try to compensate with something else to help them when it comes to holding their own. Elves have access to general skills like block and lack the stunty to get all the places the little guys go.

But in the case of lizards, you've got 6 to 7 uber-ST players running around, and when combined with 4 or 5 skinks with dodge who don't get moved when hit, you can really put a hurt on the opponent trying to open up any lanes, especially ball carriers like bulls who rely on their blitzing ST to avoid having to dodge.

That said, random really sounds like relegating it to a novelty skill at best, while requiring doubles, given stunties would have to chose between things like block, sure hands, and sidestep, would be a tough choice.

Random would really have to have the algorithim right before I'd consider giving it to any player anymore. And I think different people use the skill differently so you probably won't even get consensus on what the right order is.

You want to block lanes so if pushed, you want to go somewhere that prevents forward progress and avoids getting blocked (not necessarily next to a friendly player but one to two squares away). If that's not there, you want to go somewhere that takes away a 2-die block from the opponent. If the ballcarrier has no one else else to block or has used his blitz, then you probably do want to cover him, but I wouldn't want my skink to SS into the middle of a waiting cage to be pounded on by 3 other BOs. Whereas with lineelves, I'd give them sidestep and use it to try and get around the opposition's front line as he tries to hit me, a completely different use. So I think just going with SF made it much easier to deal with. At least everyone knows what they are looking at.

I think I'd favor doubles and just not having it as a frequent option than turning it into a a skill akin to poodles who walk on their hind legs.

[High & Mighty]

Or what about a different solution altogether.

The real issue is when pinned between two pbem SS's:

A) a push result leaves you -1MA and requiring two dodges, one into a tz to get out, the same as normal SS (because I'd always chose to get pushed straight back) but at least you would have moved ahead one square.

B) a push/knockdown result leaves you -1MA and requiring a dodge to get out whereas normal SS would leave you with the movement and free to roam.

What if PBEM SS stayed the same (act as SF/Frenzy gets just one block) but the player blocking/blitzing was able to choose to follow up into one of the two squares on either side of the SSer.

That way if you get a push, you don't have the -1 MV (but just have one dodge to get out...not two). And if you get a push/knockdown, you don't lose the MV AND don't have the dodge, as it would have been with normal sidestep.

It makes sidestep (pbem and normal) a little less useful assuming the player remains standing on the hit, but ends up with exactly the same rolls needed should the player get knocked down.

[SBG]

1) Side Step to a touchdown square
2) Side Step to become adjacent to the ball carrier regardless of which team has the ball (in case more than one #2 square qualifies ... pick the one that is in the least # of opposing TZs)
3) Side Step to a square that isn't in the TZ of an opponent but is in the TZ of one of your players.
4) Side Step to a square that isn't in the TZ of an opponent but has none of your players adjacent.
5) Side Step to a square in an opponent's TZ.


Galak

Here is my preference :
1-2-3-5-4

Fred

[GalakStarscraper]

Okay ... so I'll need to add a variable for whether the opponent has moved or not so you don't get pounded.

I'll work on it and see if I can come up with something.

Galak