Sportsmanship

[darthnoir]

First off, I have to say I was blessed by the fact that all of my opponents were great sports. Win, lose, or draw they were all fun opponents to have matches with. I went to the Blood Bowl Grand tournament with the hopes of playing my best possible tactics vs the best possible tactics of the greatest Blood Bowl players in the world, regardless of how frustrating and difficult it may be to challenge those tactics. Again, I was lucky enough to not only play against great tacticians, but great sports as well.

Now, I have always been of the mindset that all in game tactics (especially at tournaments) were fair game. This includes taking star players and running down the clock. Sportsmanship, in my opinion, is all about the coach's behavior "off the pitch". Being able to take lucky/unlucky dice in stride, being tolerant of any rules confusion (and gracefully accepting the referee's decision), and just being a fun person to play against in general is what makes a good sport in my book.

However, I talked to several coaches after the tournament that had a different view on Sportsmanship. Some of them felt that running down the clock (deliberately not scoring when you have the opportunity) was an example of bad sportsmanship. Others felt that taking Star Players (even though it was well within the rules) was also bad sportsmanship.

Being the commissioner of 2 different leagues which have a couple of Dwarf coaches, clock management (in my view) in a valid and pretty much necessary tactic. I personally don't view a Dwarf coach that spends an entire half holding onto the ball and scoring on the last possible turn as a bad sport.

However, this is only my view. I am curious to know how others feel about this.

[cidervampire]

I ccompletely agree. I've had people wanting to dock me sportsmanship for fouling their teams! Team selection and tactics are nothing to do with it in a game where the rules are s tight as bloodbowl

[Deathwing]

FWIW, I agree entirely. Clock management is part of BB, and I have zero problems with taking the strongest possible roster that the format allows.
If people want to take the moral high ground from the bottom of the rankings then that's fine. I heard a lot of 'if they allow stars next year I'm taking blah, blah, blah'. I don't know how many took a moral stance and how many were simply naive enough to think they were good enough to play around Stars, and got a little bitter from the smell of coffee.
Maybe I'm being a little harsh, but really, what did people expect?

[Grumbledook]

I went with my beard on and came 4th, winning matches gave way more points than sportsmanship was likely to provide. To do well in tournaments you have to understand the rules being used and then play to them.

[DoubleSkulls]

Isn't that one of the big problems with sportsmanship. With one vote you'll tend to pick the most exciting game - if you are given a rating for each opponent then everyone uses different criteria.

At the end of the day I don't have a problem losing sportsmanship votes/points due to team selection or playing style. After all if this effected my opponents enjoyment of the game then that's fine.

[l_dauguet]

I took no stars and still had a lot of fun Now on sportmanship, i've seen opponents becoming upset coz i was fouling their star (like if it was a tricky way of playing ). I'm sure i didn't get any sport points from them. But it's fair, it's part of the game damnit! my 3 or 4 opponent had a dirty player, he fouled me and i found that game excellent (even if i lost), what happened to him? He didn't get any sportmanship points? Not fouling when it is necessary, it's like not trying that long bomb on turn 8 to win the game...too bad for the other guy if it works but it's the game!
The only problem i see with playing the clock is that it's a bit boring to play against but it's also the game. Watcha gonna do? Punch your opponent coz is not playing the way you like? On the other side, my first opponent played the clock and wasted 2 great occasions to score!
and if you really can't do anything grab a goblin and make it fly...it doesn't do anything but it's fun

[Deathwing]

One of my opponents just called me 'beardy' as soon as he saw my line up. Apparently one star was fine (he had one) but two was 'taking the piss'.
If you're going to judge sportsmanship on 'off the field' criteria then what's the point?
I let this guy take moves back because he miscalculated assists on a blitz..I let him take moves back and do things in a different order because he forgot which of my guys had tackle..I'm just not a pedant when it comes to that kind of thing (or not declaring Pass actions etc).

If people believe that it's as important to take a 'fair' roster that they will enjoy playing against as it is to be sporting during the game then, well, I guess it's their perogative, but it's twisted logic IMO.

I'm sorry, but I just don't get this whole 'ooh...you took stars in a star environment, you bad man' thing. Whether Stars should or shouldn't be allowed is a different arguement. They were, simple as that. People rightly took advantage of it, and others saw it as a reason to get on their high horse. Good luck to them. Couldn't care less.

And while I'm here, if I'd have played the guy rumoured to be using a stopwatch on his opponents (and he'd done that to me), there'd have been a slight 'accident' with said watch and my size 9 cat boot, a probable red card and early retirement to Bugman's.

[Thadrin]

FWIW, I agree entirely. Clock management is part of BB, and I have zero problems with taking the strongest possible roster that the format allows.
If people want to take the moral high ground from the bottom of the rankings then that's fine. I heard a lot of 'if they allow stars next year I'm taking blah, blah, blah'. I don't know how many took a moral stance and how many were simply naive enough to think they were good enough to play around Stars, and got a little bitter from the smell of coffee.
Maybe I'm being a little harsh, but really, what did people expect?

I said "if they allow stars next year I'm taking Skaven."
Mostly because I now appreciate the need for something that can run away from vampires and around treemen. Bloody AG2 MA4.

I did a fair bit of bitching about stars, still think they're wildly broken in tournament settings etc, but those were the rules and I certainly wouldn't have marked down anyone for using them (not even the maniac who crammed three into his Human team.). The stopwatch thing is way out of order though.

[Anthony_TBBF]

I agree with you guys. It's attitude that make a good sport. I have to say that the people I played against at the BB were probably the best examples of good sporstmen I have ever run into. every game was a treat to play. To be honest, 99.9% of the people I have played BB against are great sports in general. I can only think of one person I've run into at a tournament that I though was a knob (and I don't think he posts here so it ain;t one of you guys ).

[Smeborg]

I agree with y'all.

You can argue about tournament rules, but once they're decided, if you want to compete, you've got to take a strong roster, as allowed by the rules.

I went to Nottingham with my (curly black) beard on (Hthark) and that's just fine.

Using the clock, and fouling, or any manouevre allowed by the rules, are just fine too. In another tournament I was given zero for sportsmanxhip by an opponent because I forcibly retired his side on casualties (it was a mini-league format). I was gobsmacked. I mean, he was Skaven, I was Chaos Dwarf, and he just let me stomp all over him. I even did so "nicely".

Cheers

[Redfang]

Not at the BB but at the Dutch Open my Dwarves faced some HE. When near the end of the 2nd turn I was going to score 2-1; off course I stalled. With a lot less players on the field and only two or 3 in reach, though, some nice dodges on his side got him within reach for blitzing/threatening my ball carrier. That way he forced me to score earlier even though I hasd a Large numerical advantage!!!
He nearly scored 2-2 in the two turns after my score! He needed only 1 2+ too many!

Now, what I mean to say is that a coach who doesn't know anything else to do when his opponent stalls the clock, but whine about sportsmanship, is not a good sportsman himself!!! It's part of the game and it's possible to stop it from happening to you.

R

[McDeth]

Clock management and playing within the rules of the tournament is perfectly acceptable in all cases. If Star Players are part of the rules then you are creating a disadvantage to yourself by not taking them.

Re Clock management, the only ones who cry foul of this are those who are unable to break down Undead/Dwarf etc advances. In other words those who aren't tactically sound enough to play any other way. They believe that they should have a god given right to score in two turns. Well i say bollocks to them. I'd quite happily play 8 Turns with the ball and score in turn 8 for a 1-0 half time lead, or to win the game 2-1. It all part of the tactics of the game. In three of the game i played i scored in turn 8 of the second half, the result was never in doubt, and why sacrifice a win to give my opponent a chance of drawing.

Sportsmanship was summed up pretty well in an earlier post, its all about accepting the luck, good or bad and playing the game in good spirit.

[Tim]

For me, sportsmanship means also playing the game thoughly with a will to win and not giving away anything for free.

In the Bloodbowl tournament, it did not matter very much to the winner if he won by 1 or by 2. For the loser though, it made a whole point in difference.

My sportsmanship vote went to the woodelf player that fought viciously to get the 3-1 score in turn 7 and 8 (and managed to do so, leaving me with only one tournament point for that game).

I hate it when people who do coach agreements like, i won't score anymore, but let me try to rack up some more casulties/passes/whatever.

While the player on the other side might be your friend, on the pitch they are opponents if not enemies

[Norse]

Ooooh, a tricky one, one I feel quite passionately about...

1) Taking stars to a star player tournament is not beardy or unsportsmanlike, it is just part of the game. The fact that teams with more stars tended to perform better reflects more on the inbalance of certain stars than it does on the coaches using them.

2) I think I'm a good bloke to play. I laugh, I enjoy myself, I swear at my team, but never my opponent. That said, I laughed out loud when Fungus killed the Ogre in game 5 (as some of you may recollect!). My opponent may well have thought that was poor sportsmanship... I was just relieved the little bugger had done something.

3) Fouling is not poor sportsmanship it is part of the game. If you can't roll a 4+/6+ and get the guy sent off, then just foul back... no probs...

4) Running down the clock is a real bugbear of mine. I hate it. I don't do it and I hate it being done to me because it sucks the fun out the game. Usually I field slow teams, so reacting to people doing it to me is quite difficult, especially after a Blitz result on the kick off table. To me, they guy who does it is saying to me "you're going to lose and I'm going to treat you like shit in the process. I don't care if you are enjoying this game of BB, I only care that I win.." and I don't like that. I'd prefer to hear "I'll take my touchdown and see what you can do about it - c'mon, score, I dare you!"

5) I have actually realised that I prefer to lose... my best games at the BB were the ones where I lost... the games I won I just felt guilty afterwards.... damn, I need help...

[squiggoth]

That "running down the clock" is when you have the ball and stand still in a safe spot while your other 10 players mangle the opposing team to jelly? I do think it's a bit cheesy against slow teams (it always works against Dwarfs!) but since Orcs aren't very quick either I'd say that anyone can do the same to me if they like. And then I just throw a Goblin at his so-called "safe" ball carrier for that 2-dice block that'll free the ball!
Sometimes throwing a Goblin even works quite good when the Gobbo scatters into the ball-carrier and kills him

Martijn