NAF Black Block dice!

[civilian_number_two]

I really doubt you'd stop playing BB if someone reissued black and gold block dice. Again, I don't understand the resistance. It's like you think that your enjoyment of the dice would be spoiled if more people had them.

Let me try this a different way for you.

Some of our limited edition figures at Impact! have sold out pretty quickly.

Since making more of them would make us a LOT more money ... is it just fine for us to make more of them?
Galak

NAF only offers dice. "Sign up now and get a set of official NAF block dice! " They don't actually claim that they are limited. Of course, semantically anything is limited, etc, and maybe some folks signed up only so they could one day lord it over other people that they were there that year the NAF made the Pink ones.

In your case, you're saying that something is limited, gaining some short-term saleability from that (which again I don't understand; was the first printing of the Harry Potter book less shit than the second one?). So yeah, in your case there would be an ethical consideration, not to mention a practical one regarding customer loyalty. Even reissuing the figures in a clearly altered form might upset some folks. I don't see that with the NAF case, unless the word "Limited" was used in the past and not now.

If the NAF were worried about a misunderstanding among collector types, they could issue Black dice with Silver images, or yellow or white or whatever. Maybe they could make them Gold but with a "NAF 2009" inside the POW (In fact maybe all their dice should have dates on them). Collectors could still crow about how much better the older ones were, like how they roll fewer skulls or whatever, and it shouldn't hurt collectibility (reprints of Sperman #1 haven't hurt Supeman #1's value). Folks who just wanted black dice could have them.

Back to the main question: these are just DICE? You need them to play the game, yeah? Game stores are full of dice of all colours, and there are companies supplying them on a daily basis, am I right? Is there any other game where this sort of conversation might be happening?

[Darkson]

They might not say "limited", but the NAF has always said there'd be new dice each year, starting from the BB GT, and the old colours will be retired.

And besides, the NAF aren't allowed to sell the dice, so even if they did re-issue them (which I'm against) the only way to get them would be to take up a NAF membership, which it seems most of the bidders on eBay don't know about/won't do (remembering the green dice that went for £15 about 3 months after they were released, and still the current set).

[GalakStarscraper]

They might not say "limited", but the NAF has always said there'd be new dice each year, starting from the BB GT, and the old colours will be retired.

Correct

So yeah, in your case there would be an ethical consideration, not to mention a practical one regarding customer loyalty.

As Darkson just pointed out ... the NAF has always portrayed the dice as limited edition. So the issues that you pointed out above apply to this situation as well.

You keep mix apples with oranges. Publications are rarely ever printed without the reader understanding the ability of the publisher to make a 2nd or more print run of the series. That is assumed. And honestly has no correlation to this discussion.

Its a matter of what was presented to the consumer and keeping those promises. In this case ... the NAF offered to us the consumer exactly as Darkson said. A limited edition set that would be retired at the end of each year. If this is not the case going forward ... they need to make this clear. But reissuing the old dice would be in my opinion a break of their original description of their marketing campaign.

And just to be clear ... I only have one set of black dice ... I have zero plans to sell them. So I'm not arguing about this for personal gain.

I'm arguing because as someone who produces limited edition items ... there is a trust given to you by your customers that you really won't go back and have more made. They pay for that trust when they buy into the limited edition item. And with the NAF ... they've run numbers on the number of folks that are members but have never posted on the forums ever or voted. They just sign up basically to get the dice ... and its a really high number of the NAF members. Lycos has done a great job of working to try and make the NAF about something more than just being block dice ... but the bottom line is that many folks use them only for this purpose ... and since that is the case... it is my opinion that they need to be very careful with breaking what I believe was a trust contract with their buyers when they first opened.

Galak

[Lahatiel]

SO we just need to change the design a bit inorder to make some for the group? These dice would not be for sale as there would be no profit in placing the order.

Replace Skulls with Helmets, use a different type of Arrow and Explosion and it would be fine?

Correct... and this exact thing has been done before, many times by many people. That's when you get Impact's block/d6 combo dice, as well as many sets of tournament-special (and, therefore, limited edition -- as that's what's pertinent to the discussion at hand) block dice people have produced over the years. Getting block dice to use with the game, either buying or making them, isn't that difficult. That's not the point of this particular thread, but it is true as its own statement.

[Subhedgehog]

SO we just need to change the design a bit inorder to make some for the group? These dice would not be for sale as there would be no profit in placing the order.

Replace Skulls with Helmets, use a different type of Arrow and Explosion and it would be fine?

As long as it's clear to the players which is which... I have, in extreme times of need, resorted to using regular D6s instead of block dice.

Nuffle was no more displeased than usual.

[Darkson]

I'm arguing because as someone who produces limited edition items ... there is a trust given to you by your customers that you really won't go back and have more made. They pay for that trust when they buy into the limited edition item.

Exactly - check out some of the 40K/WFB forums for the negative feeling GW gets when it makes another run of a figure it, at the time, claimed was a "limited edition".

[Colin]

Sorry, I don't agree with the whole idea that the dice are LE, and the comaprison to any collectible card game or any other collectible is rather silly IMO.
The dice are supposed to be "free gifts" to people who join the NAF. I have never read anything on the NAF site to suggest that they are LE. It seems too many people think the fee they are paying to join the NAF is to buy the dice. I think that the NAF dropped the ball so to speak when they kept changing the dice colours each year. Yes, they wanted to incourage people to renew their memberships, but trying to bribe people to keep renewing their membership isn't really a good idea, you will attract people who only want to join up for the "special" dice each year.
The NAF should really consider bringing out a colour scheme that they will use for 3-4 years before changing. Charge a little more for first time people to join, to cover the postage costs of sending out the free dice and renewal would be cheaper as you would only be renewing to continue your support of the NAF (no new dice received, so no postage costs for renewal). It would certainly eliminate people who just join for the dice.
GW went to producing coins to give out for thier BB tournies after they saw the Rez GRs going for crazy amounts on ebay and didn't want people just coming to tourneys just to get a LE mini to sell on ebay. The first year they gave away the coins, many people threw them on the floor and walked out.
So, to try to wrap it up, I would say to Dave (Lycos), don't be afraid of producing black dice again (as they seem to be a very popular colour), they could be with white symbols (as the gold was a little hard to see at times). And really reconsider changing the dice colour each year and keeping the same colour around for at least a couple of years. If you get people only renewing when a new dice colour comes out, you know that they are only interested in the dice, not necessarily supporting the NAF.
I have too many block dice than I know what to do with and I renew each year to support the NAF, the dice is just part of the renewal package, I don't mind getting them. If the renewal was cheaper and no dice, it wouldn't bother me.
The idea that dice are comparable to LE minis seems silly to me, I coloured the greens ones with the red symbols as they were very hard to read (painted the read symbols white) and I know I'm not the only one who did that.
Bring back the black dice if people want that colour so much. So you will piss off some collectors who think that the dice are LE collectables. They're just dice, used to play a game and meant as a free gift for membership in the NAF not a collectable like a tournament mini.

That's my 2and a half cents.

[stashman]

I love that NAF realease new dice every year! I don't care if the dice are or not LE, I WANT THEM! Each team gets it's own dice, and you can never ever have to many block dice!

All you guys that don't bother if you get new dice, just give them away to new players! Give them to charity! Throw them away! Sell them on Ebay, but don't ask NAF to take this cool thing away.

It's not a bribe, it's a really nice thing to give us new dices.

What if you loose some dice, then you know that you get some from NAF and all is okay!

More Dice! Next I want Blood Red with White Icons (for my vampire team - Batshof Red Sucks)

[GalakStarscraper]

If you get people only renewing when a new dice colour comes out, you know that they are only interested in the dice, not necessarily supporting the NAF.

Enter the core problem here Colin.

Those people are the MAJORITY of who support the NAF financially. Get rid of them and the NAF won't have enough nickels to rub together to do support for those of us who like them beyond the dice.

Your suggestion would at this point in time ... pretty much completely screw over the NAF financially. So I'm hoping they don't listen to your suggestion as I'd rather see the organization to continue to have funds to sponser events like the World Cup and several of the other projects that the NAF is working on.

Not trying to be an ass on this. Its just sometimes the high ground (which is what you are taking with your post) ... is also the poor ground.

Galak

[Colin]

Yes, there are many people who join the NAF for the dice, don't know if they're the majority or not, I doubt the NAF did a poll on that, so that's just speculation.

I doubt the NAF will listen to my suggestion, I just through it out there.
I think there should be colour BB dice available, but GW should be producing them and selling them so everyone can have different coloured dice other than the withe ones if they wish. The NAF could then offer "speical" coloured ones, like with gold or silver siybols instead of white or yellow.
Again, I know GW will never do this, but that would be the best way of curbing the problem with people joining the NAF just to flog the dice on ebay. Of course people can sell whatever they wish on ebay, but if the percetion isn't there that it is a LE item, people won't go crazy with the bidding and it wouldn't attract the wrong kind of people (those after a quick buck) to the NAF.
Like I said, just my opinion, I know nothing like what I suggested will ever happen, just throwing it out there.

As far as re-releasing the black dice, I have no problem with that personally, I guess it's up to the NAF to decide what they feel is best.
Here's another suggestion, if the NAF doesn't want to piss off the collectors, but still wants to deal with the popularity and demand of black coloured dice, why not have black dice white symbols one year, black with yellow another, black with red some other year (don't have to be consecutively).

The dice, even with colours changing each year is getting a bit boring. The NAF should look into offering other BB stuff (with GW's permission of course) as the free gift. Could be something like NAF scatter templates or range rulers, reroll counters, etc. An;thing that they could put a NAF logo on and is not a mini.
Maybe they should try doing up some d6s with the NAF logo on one side as a free giveaway instead of the block dice for awhile (do in colours to match the block dice that have already been released).
Many different possibilities.

[Darkson]

The dice, even with colours changing each year is getting a bit boring. The NAF should look into offering other BB stuff (with GW's permission of course) as the free gift. Could be something like NAF scatter templates or range rulers, reroll counters, etc. An;thing that they could put a NAF logo on and is not a mini.

I don't know the full ins and outs, but Lycos has tried this, and been blocked by GW Legal.
Block dice are the only BB thing GW will let the NAF have.

[Purplegoo]

It's a fun giveaway with membership to an organisation. I'm a huge fan of the things.

I don't understand the hullabaloo, to be quite frank.

Things are as valuable as the next fellow considers them. If someone wants to pay daft money for dice, let them. Good luck to anyone that makes the cash. If I had a Harry Potter first edition, for instance, I'd be more than happy to shift it and get a new copy (not that I like Harry Potter, but just as an example).

Maybe I'm totally over simplifying this, but if black and gold dice are so sought after, I see no problem with a rerun of the colours, you could put a NAF logo inside the POW or something. That way - those who wanted their collection completed and paid all of that money still have the kudos of the complete set, and everyone else gets great coloured dice.

Or is that too simple?!

[Ender]

So...just out of curiosity...

What are the going rates for the different NAF dice?

[civilian_number_two]

You keep mix apples with oranges. Publications are rarely ever printed without the reader understanding the ability of the publisher to make a 2nd or more print run of the series. That is assumed. And honestly has no correlation to this discussion.

Hey, I'm not the guy who started the discussion by comparng the dice with Magic Cards and other "collectibles." Publications are a pretty classic collectible, by the way. Books get reprinted all the time, agreed, but folks go nuts for first printings. Comic books get more valuable as they get older, while the publishers reserve the right to reprint them, and often they do (with little harm done to the collectibility of the originals).

I have never heard of a limited edition game, and limited edition dice is just ridiculous. Like it's been said, GW could open a dice shop and sell all of its dice in any colour of the rainbow. The NAF didn't patent the colour combinations of the dice it sold. You can say "but the consumer assumed that they'd never release them again," and that's fine, btu I don;t see why they woukld assume that, seeing as they're only dice, and dice, like pens, are manufactured by the millions every year. But again, if they wanted to make a popular colour set without making the collectors sad, they could make Black and Silver, or Black and White.

We went here from the idea that if the NAF released Black and gold dice again that it would sell loads of memberships to the idea that if it did that very same thing it would alienate its members and sell fewer memberships. I think you've taken both sides of that argument. I don't think it's right for you to do that.

For the Magic example again, no, WOTC never set out to piss off collectors when it created a new revised set. The set included a few Arabian Nights cards with nostalgic effect, but the main power cards from that and previous sets, the ones that surely would have sold a lot of packs, were not included. Those cards are still very collectible. WOTC also identified each card set as it came out, so for collectors it is impossible to mistake an Arabian Nights card for a card from the Revised set. If WOTC gave a toss about the collectors it would have reprinted all of the cards they were making the real money from. It didn't. And by the way, WOTC is doing fine.

I am glad you didn't buy your Black and Gold dice so that you could sell them later on eBay. I am glad that's not your motivation in this discussion (and how could it be, since there would be very little profit to make?) The Blue and Silver dice I bought a year back I did buy on eBay however. From you. I don't know what to say about that.

[generaljason]

Wow, this gotten really silly. I remember when the Stones did their Steel Wheels tour, they touted it as their "farewell" tour. Some people paid up to a $1000 a ticket over here to see them, thinking it was for the last time. When they eventually did yet another world tour I imagine these same people were a little pissed off, but I'm betting that they still went to see them again. Hell, I can give you a thousand reasons.

Anyway, I think Mike is right in that they are just dice. If there happens to be a popular colour scheme that the NAF can make money off of then I think they should go for it. Run it like a business. I have no doubt given the length of some of these posts that they will piss some elitists off, but they will still be members of the NAF at the end of the day. Yes, that's right, you would be. Roll it around in your head for a bit. Only a lunatic would quit an organization they like to support over the colour of a die.

End of the day I have learned one thing from this whole discussion. All I have to do is find an unscrupulous dice cutter and we're in business. I think I'll go with gold with black trim first!