NAF Black Block dice!

[civilian_number_two]

I know 12 guys who have already said that if the NAF reissued Black dice (maybe with Gold icons, though silver or white would be more readable), that they would certainly subscribe. These are guys who never subscribe, don't care about tournament play, etc. The dice are definitely a draw; one other guy I know would never play two games in the same day, let alone a tournament, and he's paid fees for the past two years.

In short, I would love to see Black dice in the future. The yellow look great though. Were there ever red? (Not Pink, RED?)

[hoomin_erra]

Nope, no red ones.



Yet!!!

[GalakStarscraper]

I am fast coming to the conclusion I should ask GW if I can get a re run if of say 4000 black/gold dice and offer them to the membership via a special deal or something. It would put a stop to this crazy stuff on ebay.

WARNING: What follows is my own personal opinion as a collector of BB

Don't ever do this.

In my opinion it would be a really horrible black mark on what has been a great period of you as president so far.

Bottom line Lycos ... part of our hobby is COLLECTING. If someone wants to pay big money for the first set of NAF dice ... who are you to screw that up.

And I say this as someone who has a GREAT deal of respect for Lycos.

Wizards of the Coast tried to do this with Magic the Gathering for similar reasons as you Lycos (they were upset with the prices the early edition cards were going for). ALL it did was COMPLETELY piss off the collecters in the hobby (it was a collectible card game) and then in the long run ... the price of the cards went right back to where they before.

So don't waste your time being envious of folks who were the early joiners of the NAF making so decent money on those dice ... those were the folks that gave the NAF its starting capital. Re-issuing the dice is like spitting on them for being early members of a new organization. And if for that investment in the NAF they can make a decent return on the black dice .... all the better for them for helping the NAF when it was just starting.

====

And I agree with Lickety ... Torg's comments are a bit paranoid on this one. GW doesn't give a rat's butt what their stuff goes for on Ebay.

Galak

[Ender]

And I agree with Lickety ... Torg's comments are a bit paranoid on this one. GW doesn't give a rat's butt what their stuff goes for on Ebay.

Galak

Then why don't they have a Trading Post section in their forums, and why to do the aggressively hassle eBay sellers?

They DO care, they see ebay sales as lost sales. Sorry, but it's hard to believe somebody who sells their products when he says that the rest of us are the paranoid ones and not GW.
Whether what you are saying is based in ignorance or not, you have absolutely zero credibility on this issue.

[GalakStarscraper]

Sorry, but it's hard to believe somebody who sells their products when he says that the rest of us are the paranoid ones and not GW.
Whether what you are saying is based in ignorance or not, you have absolutely zero credibility on this issue.

Oh God ... Lickety you were right ... images can be more important than the reality for some folks.

You do realize that BBFigs.com is not even currently endorsed by GW and I've already had 2 phone calls trying to decide if they can shut it down.

Your post makes it sound like I've got a good relationship with GW and have their support with my businesses .... far far far from it at this time.

Anyway ... back on topic ...

And I still believe that GW could care less what NAF dice sell for on Ebay as long as it is not the NAF doing the profiting. As for GW interfering with Ebay sellers ... the only ones I've ever seen them interfere with were sellers using the Blood Bowl name related to a miniature or product that they did not produce (this includes my auctions). Outside of that ... I've not seen them mess with auctions. They may have in relation to Blood Bowl ... but I've not heard of it or seen it.

Galak

[Ender]

If I am not mistaken the reality is you made compromises in the products you sell on your Impact site so you could sell Blood Bowl figs on your BBfigs site.

Isn't this correct? If so, I believe it is a working relationship with Games Workshop. Not only that but are working with them on the Living Rule Book, and with Cyanide on their game.

Sorry, I don't think you are exactly an unbiased outsider when it comes to GW.


That's all I am saying. You are the last one (well second to last to maybe JJ himself) that I am going to believe when he says, "You guys are just paranoid. GW's business practices are all completely benign."


Again, if they didn't care about eBay they certainly don't act like it. Anyone who has been contacted by them about an ebay auction knows what I am talking about. They refuse to supply the community with what it needs to play the game. They bully small time guys. And they do whatever they can to hassle eBay auctioneers.
They seem to think that after they sell their product they can still tell people what to do with it. You of all people know this and have said as much in the past.

You know who they hassle on eBay? They go directly after scenery and terrain builders who dare say "Use this with Warhammer!"

So somebody is trying to sell something that would GASP! ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO PLAY YOUR GAME and they shut it down? Huh?

Why don't they have a trading post on their forums? Because they see it as lost revenue. It's moronic and paranoid.


But we're the paranoid ones.

[GalakStarscraper]

If I am not mistaken the reality is you made compromises in the products you sell on your Impact site so you could sell Blood Bowl figs on your BBfigs site.

One had nothing to do with the other. In fact the Impact! discussions and BBFigs.com discussions have occurred with two different countries GW. We pulled items from the Impact! store because GW-UK complained that it violated GW's UK's IP rules and we had already consulted US consul that said it did not violate US IP rules. And we wanted to double check if the GW claim was accurate. IE ... good business to try and not get sued if you are in the wrong.

Isn't this correct?

Nope not correct

If so, I believe it is a working relationship with Games Workshop.

Nope .. no working relationship exists.

Not only that but are working with them on the Living Rule Book, and with Cyanide on their game.

I'll split hairs on this and tell you that neither is me working for GW. I took the BBRC job because at that time the community ask me to take it so I've always personally considered my work on the LRB as working for the BB community (and if you ever see PBBL version 0.1 ... you'll understand this more). And for the Cyanide Game I'm not working with GW. I cannot say much more because of my NDA ... but I'm definitely working for Cyanide and not GW on this one.

Sorry, I don't think you are exactly an unbiased outsider when it comes to GW.

Good enough ... but you are one of the few folks to suggest that I'm a "fan" of GW... but that's your right.

"You guys are just paranoid. GW's business practices are all completely benign."

Woooooh ... I've never said anything close to this. GW's business policies are completely over the top in almost all cases ... but I've just never seen them go after anyone on Ebay that wasn't actually breaking a law.

They seem to think that after they sell their product they can still tell people what to do with it. You of all people know this and have said as much in the past.

Yup and they had a right to do so when they've done it to me.

You know who they hassle on eBay? They go directly after scenery and terrain builders who dare say "Use this with Warhammer!"

Yes because legally you cannot say it useable with Warhammer without permission from GW.

So somebody is trying to sell something that would GASP! ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO PLAY YOUR GAME and they shut it down? Huh?

Because they lost sight a LLLLOOONNNGGG time ago of how to build a successful gaming company.

Again ... I'm no fan of GW. Saying they have a legal right to do something ... doesn't mean I think its right or even a good way to run their business. And I'm sure as heck not defending it as the right way to do things. Its just legal.

====

And what I'm trying to make clear related to this topic (yes I'm trying to stay on topic here) is that GW has to my knowledge never gone after anyone with an auction that did not violate their legal IP. Auctions of NAF dice don't do that (ie violate GW IP) ... so I don't see any reason why they'd interfere with it.

Galak

[Ender]

In your denials you seem to be saying that it is, in fact, Games Workshop who is paranoid and not us...which is all I was saying.

Split hairs all you want. You are hardly an outsider and calling us paranoid is hardly proving your point. Whether you sign a tax form, get a paycheck to whatever small detail you want to use, you are hardly an outsider when it some to Games Workshop.

Oh and one could argue that permission to sell home grown products for use with Warhammer would come from...oh I don't know...the books they sell telling the community to do so not to mention the fact that all over their own website and products they promote Warhammer has a community hobby and not just a game.
And like I said, they don't even have a trading post on their own forums.

So again, just to be clear, I am saying that Torg and those that agree with him are not the ones being paranoid. It's Games Workshop and I thank you for all the examples as to how paranoid they are.

[GalakStarscraper]

Final comment: yes GW is paranoid. But it is consistent and fairly predictable paranoia.

In this case ... it doesn't match any paranoia they've ever displayed.

So I stick by my statements. Yeah GW does stuff to not support the gamer but its consistent and as such IMO doesn't apply to NAF dice UNLESS the NAF was the ones Ebaying them.

[Magictobe]

Why is almost every subject on TBB ending in a such a discussion.

What the hell do I care what GW is doing for Bloodbowl. I love the game, I love to play it.

If I
- do not like the figures they suggest
- cannot find the figures
- do not want to give too much money to buy the team on ebay
then I just use other figures and base ring them if they are not clear.

Sometimes these discussion go so far beyond the subject and get sometimes real personal. What is a shame.

So,

just love the sport. Play whoever you want and enjoy the game!!!

[civilian_number_two]

Galak, I don't understand the resistance to the idea of more of a popular die colour. I appreciate that you like that you got in early, but look at it this way. Let's say that a company put out 5000 boxed sets of a game and they sold like hotcakes in the first year. Should they NEVER republish the game, out of respect for the collectors? Where would I have gotten my box of Settlers of Cataan had that happened?

The WoTC example is perfect. The speculators and collectors got miffed, the speculator market went into a downswing, and Magic tournaments in small cities still reliably attract a couple of hundred players. The game has been going successfully for more than a decade now, despite reprinting collectible cards. The company did what was good for the company, by printing popular cards and selling them.

The game is about play, and the business of selling the game is about what people want to buy. GW will stop making dice altogether before long and the only dice made that resemble the original game product may be these NAF give-aways. When that happens, what will you advocate? A different colour every year, out of respect for the collectors? Or a more sensible, business-minded solution of producing what the market wants? Was GW right to stop marketing BB figures, Star Players, etc, because even if it hurts the game, it makes the collectors proud and smug that they got in early? LOL!

I really doubt you'd stop playing BB if someone reissued black and gold block dice. Again, I don't understand the resistance. It's like you think that your enjoyment of the dice would be spoiled if more people had them.

[Darkson Designs]

Is there a reason why you could not just get in touch with a custom dice maker and get a group order together? It would be about $1.00 per side for 25 or less dice or .75 cents per side for 26-99 dice. Sorry if this is a lame question still kind of a nube to this.

[GalakStarscraper]

I really doubt you'd stop playing BB if someone reissued black and gold block dice. Again, I don't understand the resistance. It's like you think that your enjoyment of the dice would be spoiled if more people had them.

Let me try this a different way for you.

Some of our limited edition figures at Impact! have sold out pretty quickly.

Since making more of them would make us a LOT more money ... is it just fine for us to make more of them?

My opinions on the above is a direct match to my feelings on NAF dice. I personally believe that the NAF has been releasing a limited edition item each year. If the NAF has not been ... then they should refer to them differently.

Its a matter of impressions on whether the NAF has given the impression that the dice are limited editions. If they are not ... they should be more up front about because in my opinion that is part of how they market them.

Galak

[GalakStarscraper]

Is there a reason why you could not just get in touch with a custom dice maker and get a group order together? It would be about $1.00 per side for 25 or less dice or .75 cents per side for 26-99 dice. Sorry if this is a lame question still kind of a nube to this.

Not a lame question at all. Its legit.

Its has to do with legal rights. GW owns the rights to that design.

No custom dice maker who knew that was the pattern for Blood Bowl dice would delibrately recreate them as that would be illegal.

They will make dice that are similar to block dice ... but not exact. In the USA for example if you change an image by 10% you can print it without violating the rights of the person whose image you changed. That's the rule that folks that make dice similar to block dice use to have them made.

The reason the NAF has the actual block dice symbols is because GW gives them to the NAF for free as a thank you for it being the largest player network group for any game they publish.

Galak

[Darkson Designs]

SO we just need to change the design a bit inorder to make some for the group? These dice would not be for sale as there would be no profit in placing the order.

Replace Skulls with Helmets, use a different type of Arrow and Explosion and it would be fine?