OGRE Teams ... TBB PLEASE VOTE

[GalakStarscraper]

Okay a lot of leagues have now tested JJ's 3 experimental Ogre rosters which he revealed to the BB online folks 6 months ago. So which one would you rather see become official. I have delibrately left off something else other than the BB Annual 2003 team as Ogre #4. These are the teams that have seen the testing. The odds of having any other rosters or concepts considered and tested at this point are very remote to be honest. So now I want to see which one you'd like to see in the rulebook now that you've had some time to think about the 3 choices.

Ogre #1
0-11 Ogre 120,000 5 5 2 9
... Mighty Blow Thick Skull, Throw TeamMate, Bonehead GEN, ST
0-5 Goblin 40,000 6 2 3 7
... Dodge Right Stuff, Stunty AG
Rerolls: 70,000
Apothecary: Yes
Stars Allowed: Morg 'N' Thorg, Thrud
Special Team Rule: The Ogre #1 roster's team rating is equal to its Team Rating + the amount of Team Rating over 100 (if any) for purposes of handicap and winnings rolls. (Example: a TR 150 Ogre #1 team is treated as if it is TR 200).

Ogre #2
0-12 Ogre Blocker 100,000 5 5 2 9
... Mighty Blow Thick Skull, Really Stupid GEN, ST
0-4 Ogre Thrower 120,000 5 5 2 9
... Mighty Blow Thick Skull, Throw TeamMate, Bonehead GEN, ST
0-4 Goblin 40,000 6 2 3 7
... Dodge Right Stuff, Stunty AG
Rerolls: 70,000
Apothecary: Yes
Stars Allowed: Morg 'N' Thorg, Thrud
SPECIAL NOTE: For purposes of testing this roster, Really Stupid is returned to the wording it had in Blood Bowl Compendium #1 and Blood Bowl Magazine #1 not the wording in the LRB. This means that Bonehead players CANNOT add +2 to the Really Stupid rolls for adjacent Really Stupid players. Only the Goblins on the team can allow the Blockers the +2 bonus for their Really Stupid rolls. (This will not be a special team rule going forward as the BBRC would change the text for Really Stupid if this team became official).

Ogre #3
0-12 Ogre 120,000 5 5 2 9
... Mighty Blow Thick Skull, Throw TeamMate, Bonehead GEN, ST
0-6 Goblin 40,000 6 2 3 7
... Dodge Right Stuff, Stunty AG
Rerolls: 80,000
Apothecary: Yes
Stars Allowed: Morg 'N' Thorg, Thrud
Special Team Rule: The Ogre #3 roster suffers a -10k penalty to all its gold rolls and any opponent of the Ogre team may roll for one extra handicap result (even if their Team Rating is higher).

Ogre #4
0-8 Ogre 120,000 5 5 2 9
... Mighty Blow Thick Skull, Throw TeamMate, Bonehead GEN, ST
0-8 Goblin 40,000 6 2 3 7
... Dodge Right Stuff, Stunty AG
Rerolls: 70,000
Apothecary: Yes
Stars Allowed: Morg 'N' Thorg, Thrud

[Xtreme]

I've been playing ogre teams since the rules first poped up on the internet durring 3rd editon. I have to say ogre team 2 is by far the best. Keeps the feeling of an ogre team the best and has less area for abuse. Playing the ogre 3 in the MBBL is kind of frustrating at this point though I think had the intial roster been put together difrently then It could be much more open for serious abuse. The thing that really needs to be looked at though is how the team will look after 10 games, which is hard for a lot of leagues to test that far. What i have found with ogre teams is that once you start getting them skills they have a lot less trouble lossing games, I would imagine including goblins on the roster will only make this worse so I would like to keep as few Gobbos available to the team as possible.

[BlanchPrez]

I'm all for team 2. It just has the feel of a fun team to play that wouldn't be overpowering in the game, and it doesn't require any specail rules, just a change to the wording of a skill. I like this better.

Chris

[Grumbledook]

I voted team 2 and posted the link in fumbbl chat soon after galak started the thread

this rose to a little story the name of the individual i shall withhold

but basically he asked me how will that affect trolls on chaos and chaos dwarf teams if only goblins can give the 2+ assist to the really stupid roll ;]

[BlanchPrez]

but basically he asked me how will that affect trolls on chaos and chaos dwarf teams if only goblins can give the 2+ assist to the really stupid roll ;]

ROFL!!!!!

[Chris]

Why not a RON option? At the very least you know how much criticism/indifference the team will be met with.

I've bought an Ogre team, but I doubt I'll be using it if number 2 is chosen.
Ogres are dumb, but they aren't trolls.

Plus, for the purposes of knowing what I'm voting for, I've only managed to play with the 8 Ogre 8 Goblin team, and SPP's have been very scarce - hard to get them with no block and you are making an effort to win, so not accepting every both down that comes along - and the money I've made has been only just enough to cover the deaths of Goblins.
The games I've won have been because my opponent made masses of mistakes. My own abilities counted for very litle, especially since bonehead means you can play only opportunistacally.

All three of those rosters don't lead me to belive I can win. Goblins, Halflings, even Norse , I feel I have a chance with. With those Ogre rosters I don't feel that, and there no incetive to use them, unless I was going to a large tournament with guarentied skill progression and wanted to get the Highest Casualties and Wooden Spoon award.

As for any system that reduces the cash you get as a team, all that means is the first Ogre loss you take means the team retires. Your FF drops through the floor anyway with the failure to win (they may become unbeatable after 10 games, but they will come out of the tenth game with 1 FF), so whats left? A team you play for a couple of games to hopefully soften everyone else up, then retire when the losses are too great and come back with a different race?

[GalakStarscraper]

Why not a RON option? At the very least you know how much criticism/indifference the team will be met with.

Okay fair enough I'll try to add the Annual team to the poll as Ogre #4. However, even JJ has come forward and said this team was broken so the odds of it making it in are slim and that's being generous to be honest.

Chris, anyway that I could reply to your experience with the printed 8 Ogre/8 Goblin roster would probably seem like I'm insulting you which would not be intended.

I've played the team in the rulebook. My starting team was 3 Ogres, 8 Goblins, 9 FF, 3 rerolls, and 20k in the bank. I played it as an Super Goblin team on its way to becoming an Ogre team and it pretty well with it. As I picked up each 120k, I added the next Ogre. Doubles on the Ogres went for Pass on each one. Doubles on the first Goblin went for Kick. Add in Block on the Ogres as they develop and while its a slow starting motor ... its does eventually start to really hum. Also this roster has one major glaring problem ... the same one that Ogre #3 has in my opinion. A smart coach who plans on playing the team long term will start with a team that fields more Goblins than Ogres. In my opinion, when there are more ST 2 players than ST 5 on the pitch, you didn't field an Ogre team ... the rules for the team should not allow this to occur. Again that just my opinion.

Also Xtreme if he wants will tell you a similar story from his experience with the team ... once it starts to roll ... ie An AG 3 Ogre, Block, Pass, etc ... it really is a very scary team. An Ogre with Pro and Pass and Goblin with the ball and a team reroll for the landing can do a one turn Score with around 63.9% chance ... that's a very scary threat, and we are only talking one Doubles roll on an Ogre to have that threat.

Galak

[Grumbledook]

indeed the original mag roster is used at fumbbl at the moment and the team is sick

get them all piling on for their first skills and you got cas machines, churning in spp

get one with pass to ttm

its just silly

i really like the idea of giving them really stupid, sure all the other ogres are bonehead but they are training with proper players or might just be better players in the first place. It makes sense the proper teams will go to get the better ogres onto their team, leaving the no hopers to form their own teams

[Chris]

>>>>>>>
Okay fair enough I'll try to add the Annual team to the poll as Ogre #4. However, even JJ has come forward and said this team was broken so the odds of it making it in are slim and that's being generous to be honest.
>>>>>>

Just to be awkward, I don't like them much either

>>>>>>
Chris, anyway that I could reply to your experience with the printed 8 Ogre/8 Goblin roster would probably seem like I'm insulting you which would not be intended.
>>>>>>>

An insult! I challenge you to trolls at dawn!

>>>>
I've played the team in the rulebook. My starting team was 3 Ogres, 8 Goblins, 9 FF, 3 rerolls, and 20k in the bank. I played it as an Super Goblin team on its way to becoming an Ogre team and it pretty well with it. As I picked up each 120k, I added the next Ogre. Doubles on the Ogres went for Pass on each one. Doubles on the first Goblin went for Kick. Add in Block on the Ogres as they develop and while its a slow starting motor ... its does eventually start to really hum. Also this roster has one major glaring problem ... the same one that Ogre #3 has in my opinion. A smart coach who plans on playing the team long term will start with a team that fields more Goblins than Ogres. In my opinion, when there are more ST 2 players than ST 5 on the pitch, you didn't field an Ogre team ... the rules for the team should not allow this to occur. Again that just my opinion.
>>>>>>

I actually totally agree here. I could never bring myself to field the goblin plus the odd Ogre team, as I've got goblin teams for that. It's a different ball game if you play for the long term, but I'm a greedy Ogre and want success now. My starting line up was supposed to be 6 Ogres, but messing around with them and a friend for a bit convinced me I needed two RR, so it was 5 ogres, 6 goblins, 2 RR, 2 FF. You can see my first matches here http://www.irwilliams.com/ecbbl/team_matches.php?id=65
It's two games out of date, as I've lost my password (I'll find it soon!).
Looking over my notes I'm amused at the idea of giving the Goblins bonehead. I still think it's an entertaining idea!

>>>>
Also Xtreme if he wants will tell you a similar story from his experience with the team ... once it starts to roll ... ie An AG 3 Ogre, Block, Pass, etc ... it really is a very scary team. An Ogre with Pro and Pass and Goblin with the ball and a team reroll for the landing can do a one turn Score with around 63.9% chance ... that's a very scary threat, and we are only talking one Doubles roll on an Ogre to have that threat.
>>>>>>>>>

I'm drawn to the goblin throwing game like a moth to a flame. I think I've managed to permanently kill one goblin every two games through throwing them. Not once have the little buggers hit the ground running to score.

[Tore]

I'll come to the cross and admit that I made that comment on FUMBBL. I'm an official card holder of the Daft Gits Are Us Club.

But in all seriousness roster #3 is terribly broken, as Grumbledook mentioned. In the rookie stages the team is fine, but as soon as those Ogres start getting a skill or two nothing can stand against them if their coach knows what he or she is doing - only Nuffle's revenge.

For what it's worth I did vote for roster #2.

.: Tore

[Robotorz]

The less goblins on a ogre team the more fun is it to play against it and the more mayhem you have by playing against it. Thats why I voted #2.

[Mestari]

There is no question about it:

Team #2 is by far the best. It's fun, it's balanced (between #1's "inflate me TR" and #3's and #4's utterly unbalanced rosters) and it feels like an ogre team.

Also, we have two kinds of ogre figures, the thrower and the ordinary ogre, so there is no reason for not having two ogre positions.

Go Ogre team #2!

[morph]

A cross between #1 and #2?

Ok... that's not allowed, but I really dislike the really stupid Ogres.

And I think the less gobbos the better. What's wrong with no goblins at all?

[Chris]

Not enough cash to get 11 players morph.
I do dislike really stupid ogres, but only because I see that as a troll trait.

[noodle]

Apart from it being nuffles sacred number, whats wrong with ogres starting with less than 11 players?