Why do the stunty teams have to suck?

Ulmo · Post by **Ulmo** » Thu May 01, 2003 11:13 pm

I read and read and read people saying that the stunty teams are not supposed to balanced to the other teams and they need to remain that way.

Why?

So experienced coaches can play fairer games against new coaches? Well thats a crock. Give the new coaches more money, or reduce the money that experienced coaches get. Or give the experience coach nothing but human linemen...

Because the rule makers want it that way? Because it models the fluff? Because someone has to suck? Because there are too many teams already? Because, because because?

Really, give me a honest to god good reason to leave it that way. If someone wants to plop down money to buy halflings (which cost the same as everything else and you need more of them...which means more money GW) and they want to play the game, be competitive and have fun. Give me a good reason it shouldnt be that way.

--Ulmo

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Fri May 02, 2003 12:04 am

I think its a major flaw of the game that Goblins and Halflings just plain suck. Wood Elves suck as well if played wrong - Wood Elves are challenging!

Stunty Teams should be boosted to a Level where they can be "almost" competitive if they are played by a very good coach.

But this subject is one of the topics that can not be discussed on this board.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri May 02, 2003 12:54 am

Ulmo ... first off ignore Toby on this topic ... his is the clear ringing voice of the 1% minority.

Okay Halflings and Goblins are supposed to "suck" for a reason. They are the challenge teams in the games. They are there for coaches like me and Zombie who have been playing this game for so long that we feel comfortable handicapping ourselves to play against another coach.

That said don't count Flings and Goblins out as they stand right now they can put together a TR 100 roster that can go toe to toe with most other opponents. In fact I'm currently undefeated (3-0) with my TR 100 Halfling team that I use for tournaments since this is the year of the 120k Ogre for stunty teams. (I've won all 3 of those games by 2+ TDs and 2+ casualties ...opponents Dark Elf, Human, and Skaven).

So right now anyone who doesn't think these teams are pretty serious under the rules they have right now ... well that would surprise me ... this includes Toby. As the rules stand right now, you can pretty much field a full team and freeboot a Master Chef every other game along with starting with 2 Ogres. That's a pretty good team if a coach knows what they are doing. Again if you don't believe that Halflings are competitive ... pick up the PBeM tool and I'll throw down with you with my TR 100 Fling roster using the GenCon format and we'll see what shape your team comes out the other side on.

Now in October the Flings and Goblins are about 100% likely to lose access to Ogres per everything I've been told. That will knock down their strength a notch for sure. However new rules are being tested and seriously considered by the BBRC to give the Stunties a small leg up without having Ogres.

Items currently being tested by the BBRC for Stunties include:
1) Free Master Chef for Halflings with cheaper ability to steal more rerolls
2) On-Pitch Take Root for Treemen (not good at all for Wood Elves, but a debateable leg up for Halflings)
3) Free weapons for Goblin teams for each game.
4) A possible kicker position for the Stunty teams.

The MBBL is a test league for the BBRC ... if you want to see what rules they have us testing right now they are:

1) Teams: http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL/MBBL_GWRosters.html

2) Piling On declared before the armour roll

3) Secret Weapon rules: http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL/SecretWeapons.html

and 4) On Pitch Take Root

Code: Select all

Before taking an action with a player with this characteristic that is neither prone or stunned, roll a D6. On a 2+, he is fine and may continue his action as normal. On a 1, he takes root into the pitch and loses his action for this turn. In addition, for the rest of the drive, no actions may be taken with this player and he has no Tackle Zone. If he had the ball, he'll drop it and it will scatter one square causing a turnover if not caught by another member of your team.

I posted all this so you could see the direction that testing is currently being done with the Stunties.

The bottom line: Folks who buy the Halflings or Goblin teams know what they are getting in for and spending their money to play a challenging fun team is their choice and should be an option. I've met very few experienced BB coaches who didn't believe that Stunties teams should be several handicapped ... again Toby is one of the very very few exceptions. Several rules are in the works to make those two teams more fun to play but still keep them challenging. At the end of the day, thats how it should be, and trust me ... you aren't ever going to convince JJ to make them a serious team.

Galak

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » Fri May 02, 2003 4:06 am

Galak is right, the stunties are there to provide a challenge to veteran coaches, or to give players who like to play for fun a fun team!

In BB everything isn't meant to be equal, and this is what makes for so much variety.

-Balrog

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Fri May 02, 2003 7:10 am

Life ain't fair, especially if you're a stunty!

That's the way it has always been, that's the way it should always be!

R

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Fri May 02, 2003 7:29 am

Because one short-legged, hairy-footed, bear-belly fellow somehow managed to destroy the One Ring does not mean that they can play Blood Bowl.

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Fri May 02, 2003 7:47 am

I agree with Galak - stunties should be worse that the other teams. However, played well they should be able to give a good account of themselves. I haven't played much in the way of Flings but have played quite a bit with Gobbos.

That said, if lucks against you, any stunty team is likely to get really hammered..... in my PBEM League (RABBL) I am playing gobbos - current recored 1-2-1 (W-L-T) - I am now drawn against Dwarves. My team has a TR of only 109 since I had an Ogre die in the first 2 turns of the first match - 5 other players have also died. My 5th match is against Dwarves - I have 11 players (having just managed to buy a Troll to replace the dead Ogre). 1 of my 2 niggled gobbos fails the niggle roll - so I start with 10. The first kick off is a Pitch Invasion - despite having 2 more FF, I lose and 6 players are affected - this results in 1 death, 2 SIs, 1 BH and 2 stunned. I use the apoth and therefore have 7 players to start the first drive.

I have failed about 1 in 3 dodges (not against Tackle), a rerolled gfi failed allowing the Dwarves to get to the ball carrier. They score and the next kick off was a blitz. My Troll is KO'd and with other injuries I now have 3 players on the pitch and there are still 3 complete turns to play in the first half.

So be warned - life as a stunty coach can be hard!

Dave

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Fri May 02, 2003 9:09 am

I don't know Galak, what I said is not that much diffrent from what you said. "almost competitive" "if played by a good coach"

When I played a lot of league matches in 3rd Edition, I saw some Goblin Blitzers with Block & Dauntless. Thats an impossible combo now, and thats completeley stupid imho. The Goblin is ST2, come on, you need a skill and a trait and 16 SPP to get something that looks like a blocker. And even that is prohibited.

Goblins and Halflings should get some Positional Players, and acces to General Skills. That way you can play them in a league without loosing ALL the time.

And Galak, your Team Rating 100 is a joke, isn't it ? Is this game about playing at TR 100 or is it about devloping a customized set of playing pieces ? Of course, I could win against any Chaos or Dwarf Team with TR100, with whatever race you give me. As soon as the Bashers get some skills, things turn in a more bloody direction however....

My Proposal for Goblin Teams is:

Trolls loose "Big Guy" on Goblin Teams, Goblins get access to General Skills.
Goblin Teams get 0-4 Orc Blitzers.
Goblins Teams get 0-2 "Bombardiers" (Accurate, Passing Skills)
Goblins Teams get 0-4 "Bouncy's" (Pogo Stick)

Have never played or seen Halflings.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri May 02, 2003 9:48 am

Toby wrote:And Galak, your Team Rating 100 is a joke, isn't it ? Is this game about playing at TR 100 or is it about devloping a customized set of playing pieces ? Of course, I could win against any Chaos or Dwarf Team with TR100, with whatever race you give me.

Man I wish you would show up at a major tournament to attempt to prove statements like that. I SERIOUSLY doubt you could beat any Chaos or Dwar TR 100 team with any race, but since you don't play BB via email and don't show up for tournaments ... you are safe making sure statements.

As soon as the Bashers get some skills, things turn in a more bloody direction however....

I've held my own with Flings for a while and many a good coach has winning seasons with them. My point is simple ... its a bad idea to have the Goblin and Halfling teams be equals with other teams. Having them be worse allows for some fun new rules to be considered ... not going to restate them ... see the above post.

Bottom line Toby for me ... I'm VERY happy with the fun changes that I see in the pipeline for the Stunty teams. A major rework like you propose has no appeal to me. They are already getting reworked and those guys got it right in my opinion.[/quote]

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri May 02, 2003 12:25 pm

Yer i had a goblin team in fumbbl under the current rules and i still managed to get a fair few wins and some loses were really unlucky

i didn't use ttm all the time either

i think the stunty teams are just about right as they are (though remove ogres i don't take them anyway)

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Fri May 02, 2003 12:46 pm

Galak, you just can't get aquainted to my way of pointing out things.

What I wanted to say is:
It makes a huge difference If teams face each other with their initial TR 100 starting rosters, or, at lets say TR 200.

Stunty Teams are cut off from Team Development by denying them
A. General Skills and B. Positional Players that can acces Positional Skills.

How ever I am amazed how you manage to avoid to let my argumentation get inside your head at all by simply focusing on what you want to think was an arrogant statement.

If you want an arrogant statement of mine, I am one of germany's top StarCraft players, a game that can actually be played in one night on battle.net instead of one match lasting 4 to 6 weeks via email. Tell me when Blood Bowl made it to the World Cyber Games Championships in Korea, thats the kind of "Major Tournaments" I used to show up.
Thank you, Galak.

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Fri May 02, 2003 1:06 pm

Toby wrote:

I could win against any Chaos or Dwarf Team with TR100, with whatever race you give me.

If you want an arrogant statement of mine, I am one of germany's top StarCraft players, a game that can actually be played in one night on battle.net instead of one match lasting 4 to 6 weeks via email. Tell me when Blood Bowl made it to the World Cyber Games Championships in Korea, thats the kind of "Major Tournaments" I used to show up.

There is a tourny in Paris next weekend!

Paris is closer than South Korea and there will be at least 5 Chaos dwarf coaches. You are surely invited to come, so why don't you prove your statement there? I know one of the CD coaches, and be assured that in one wonderful night in Paris (romantic

) you can play more than one nice little match of BB with a race of my choice (!) to show your ability against the CD! And you might get NAF pionts as well over the weekend...So? Do we meet there?

(and just to be sure: no, this is not meant to be arrogant or funny!

I am serious that Paris is not that far from where you live [compared to Korea anyway] and can be a lot of fun off-BB, too)

Sputnik

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Fri May 02, 2003 1:14 pm

Isn't the Table Tennis World Championship going on in Paris as well the next weeks ? Wow, 2 major international Sports events in such a small town.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Fri May 02, 2003 1:17 pm

Toby wrote:I am one of germany's top StarCraft players...

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Fri May 02, 2003 1:30 pm

Toby wrote:

Isn't the Table Tennis World Championship going on in Paris as well the next weeks ? Wow, 2 major international Sports events in such a small town.

So? Chaos dwarfs will be there waiting for you! And I would bring the minis of a race of my choice as well. And the counters and dice. All you would need for your demonstration match would be you and your book of nasty tactics!

Is Paris as a 'town' not big enough for you? Spring in Paris, nice surroundings, a lot of spectators, international flair with people from England, France, Holland, Italy, Germany, New Zealand ....(I am sure I now forget to mention someones nationality

)

Are you joininmg in?

Which place would be better then? Your hometown? Could possibly arranged as well, only two hours by car, maybe less from here...

Just drop a note!

Sputnik