New skills: block and knock down

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:13 pm

I don't remember if i brought this up here before or if it was only at BBC, but here goes. Maybe the naming needs a little work, but the idea is there.

Basically, i find it boring how everyone takes block on their first skill. I think you'd see more variety in skills and the game would be more interesting if block was brought down a notch.

So here's the idea. Divide the skill into two; one that works when getting hit (block) and one that works when hitting (knock down). We'd have to decide which version players who currently start with block would get. Blitzers should have knock down, dwarf longbeards should have block, etc. Then bring down their prices accordingly. Some (e.g. dwarf longbeards) might have both and keep the same price.

With this, both skills would be more inline with the other skills in the game in terms of power. You wouldn't see everybody taking them, and you'd see other skills more often, which means more variety. And you wouldn't get the boring situation where everybody in the league has block after only one skill. Plus, it would have the added benefit of adding another skill in the general category, which is pretty slim now that 4 of them have become traits.

What do you guys think?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:29 pm

This is one of those ideas that has been around for a while: Block/Deflect along with Dodge/Fend (same thing as Zombie mentioned for Block but splitting Dodge into two pieces).

Its one of those changes that I would not stand in the way of if it ever came to pass.

Galak

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:20 am

So, nobody else has any opinion on this, positive, negative or otherwise?

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:54 am

It certainly would allow a certain degree of extra decision-making when choosing skills. But on the other hand, what comes to dodge for example, I like the dual nature of the skill. A Blocker-type player taking dodge to keep standing also gets a slightly improved ability to move around, making him overall a better player, instead of keeping him restricted to his niche. For example some of my dodge dwarves have mounted nasty surprises with their 75% ability to prance away from tackle zones.

It's hard to say whether I'd like this - I'd have to test this.
What about players who start with block/dodge? Do they get both associated skills, or only one of them?

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:09 am

Personally I like the skills as they stand right now. What I do not like is that everybody takes Block as their first skill (tactically it makes sense, of course).

We found a way around this by the typo that occured in the German Bloodbowl version. There Block was listed as an Strength skill. The whole matter cleared up, but everybody in our league liked this rule so we leave it this way.

This had the effect, that far fewer player could take the block skill, and Strenght team became more in balance toward agility teams ...

Everybody who does not like the high occurance of the block skill should try this out ... it works out great !

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:57 am

I like it. It would add a little bit more strategy to skill choices and I'm all for that.

I say bring back the skill levels while we're at it! Not only the Level 4 Mighty Blow but the Block Levels too! Block-2 negates Block-1, for example...or in the case of the Z's idea Knock Down 2 negates Block 1. (I know waaay complitrated but that's what I like!)

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:29 am

As it stands, block only affects your own chance of getting knocked down. Having block does not, in any way, affect the chance of your opponent being knocked down. It only serves to keep you on your feet, whether you're blocking or being blocked.

There is a seperate skill which increases the opponent's chance of being knocked down and that is tackle.

AFAIC the skill is pretty much split into offensive and defensive versions already.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:47 am

Marcus wrote:As it stands, block only affects your own chance of getting knocked down. Having block does not, in any way, affect the chance of your opponent being knocked down. It only serves to keep you on your feet, whether you're blocking or being blocked.

This isn't quite true though is it? If you have block you can use the POW/SKULL result to knock you opponent down, if you don't have Block then you will need a POW. As most players don't start with Block it makes quite a big difference.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:03 am

In practice it works that way because you're not giving up a turnover. It still doesn't increase your chances of knocking someone down, it only keeps you on your feet while they go down.

Splitting it between useable when blocking to useable when blocked is a bizarre idea to me. I reject the idea that it will mean we'll see "other skills more often". On the contrary I think we'd see other things less as it would mean that linemen would have 2 basic skills to get other than just one. Everyone would take block and knockdown first of all (cf: block and tackle as a standard lineman choice for 2 skills) and we'd rarely get past those skills at all.

By jumping out of the "everyone has block after the first skill" frying pan you land yourself right in the "everyone has block and knockdown after the first two skills fire". Keeping just one skill ensures that people move on from the useful baseline skills quickly and start getting interesting skills.

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:13 am

restricting the access to block would be the other way Marcus ...

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:19 am

Restrict access to block then everybody gets something else as their generic lineman skill. Probably tackle. I can almost hear the cries of elf and amazon coaches as the sudden change to block means that so many more players have tackle as their first skill. "Amazons are now untenable because there's so much tackle around, we need to change the rules to make dodge better, lets split dodge into a works while dodging and a works while blocked version...." etc etc ad nauseum.

Something has to be the most popular skill. Block is a sensible choice.

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:01 pm

I can only tell from our league experiences, that with restricted block access (into STR), the teams were developed broader ...

The fact that everybody would take tackle then, didn't occure with us ... so for us it was-and-is it the right solution.

Btw it made Blocking teams more popular.

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 5:22 pm

I've never liked the idea of splitting the skills.
Its another hit against the hitting teams. If you're going to split block then why not split Dodge into a skill to evade blocks and a skill to actually dodge away from people? Why not split Catch into a skill for Catching and a skill for intercepting?

It all gets very complicated and I want no part of it.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 5:32 pm

I agree with Thadrin. Although I can see where Zombie is coming from, this seems to make blocking overcomplicated.

I don't see how you can hope to discourage Block from being the most common skill a lineman takes. After all, staying on your feet when blocking/being blocked is probably the most important part of the game.

Cheers,
Martyn

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:02 pm

I had this discussion with someone recently and agreed that taking everyone taking Block (and to a lesser extent Dodge) as starting skills is

But I also do not like the idea of splitting the skills. I agree with Marcus that this means linemen will get two basic skills before an interesting one as well as adding unessecary complication.

Besides this is what makes Blitzers so much better than linemen, they start with the boring block skill so their first 'real' skill is always an interesting one.