Reducing Block as the #1 skill in the game

mattski · Post by **mattski** » Sat May 02, 2009 9:58 pm

Easy enough to do, just make it like Wrestle except instead of both players hitting the deck without an armour roll if a player has Block (either of them) and 'Both Down' is rolled then nothing happens. At all. If one party has wrestle and the other block then the player who made the block gets to choose which skill takes precedence. This way if you are an attacking player you take wrestle but a ball-handling one would take block.

I am just tired of block being the uber skill of choice (or non-choice really). Can't see it altering the game massively and would make the first or second skill choice somewhat more entertaining....maybe.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sat May 02, 2009 10:12 pm

wrestle has already had a great effect on people taking block or not

I think it will have even more of an effect when people are used to using wrestle

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Sun May 03, 2009 12:01 am

Its funny because I just don't see Block alone as a "skill of choice". Wrestle, Guard & Dodge are all up there too. So nerfing one probably means nerfing the others too. What Wrestle did was dilute the pool of "tier 1" skills - which is good because it increases diversity.

I think the skill system works as is. There are core skills than most want at some point and then secondary skills that are better at augmenting the basic player or other skills.

Pink Horror · Post by **Pink Horror** » Sun May 03, 2009 4:57 am

Some skill has to be #1. In a football-style game, with "Block dice", it should be Block.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun May 03, 2009 5:25 pm

Block is only #1 in that it's the #1 general-access skill. Even then, it's got competition from Wrestle (and to a lesser extent Sure Hands). I'd rank Block as tied for #3 in overall goodness (with Sidestep, after Dodge and Guard), but situationally it could be a lot higher or lower on a given player position. Others would rank it differently; the only consensus I'd expect is that it's a clear top-tier skill.

If you turned Block into a no-one down skill, you'd be victimizing Blockers. You'd need to account for this, because those guys already suffer pretty badly in the current SPP rules.

sumbloke · Post by **sumbloke** » Mon May 04, 2009 7:22 am

I have a team that has 8 players with improvements - none of them has taken Block and only two of them are planned to get it later. Most of the rest of the team will get Wrestle instead.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon May 04, 2009 3:17 pm

On an average-or-faster team, Wrestle is better on the line, while Block is better in the backfield and on the WZs: at the inside LB, both have their relative merits (Wrestle for cagebreaking, Block for holding out). Since some players start with Block, this means the team can take mostly Wrestle if they like. On a slow team, Block is generally better all-round, except maybe on one safety or outside LB. On offense, Block is better for holding a cage or beating up the LOS, while Wrestle is better for making a hole. Again, on offense Wrestle tends to be a better option for speed, as ST4/Block/Frenzy (or ST3 and lots of Guard) is better than Wrestle for the same purpose, especially on a player with Stand Firm and a good AV.

Otake · Post by **Otake** » Mon May 04, 2009 4:31 pm

I agree with mattski that Block should be nerfed. I agree too that such nerfing involve nerfing of Dodge and Tackle (and perhaps Sidestep). In addition, you will have to reconsider the cost of all the Teams lists' positional players starting with Block (and there we have the 80k human Blitzer

The downside of Wrestle is that it leaves you open to fouling, which is rather common in LRB5.

I'm actually testing with a few friends the following rules :

Block allows the attacker to transform "Both Down" into "Pushed Back" Result.

Dodge doesn't work anymore on a !Pow result.

Tacle becoming useless under these new rules, it now allows you to change a "Pushed Back" result into a "!Pow" (not Pow) result only during a Block (not in a Blitz)

To buff up Wrestle a bit, it's now this skill that negates Dodge on a Dodge roll

On a !Pow result, the only injury the Defender can get is "Stunned". Using Piling On induce a normal Injury roll.

+ several minor changes on Juggernaut, Fend, etc.

If anybody want a complete copy...

Only a few matches with these rules, but it goes out fine so far.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Mon May 04, 2009 4:54 pm

I agree that if you nerfed Block, some other skill would just rise to predominance and everyone would start complaining about that. Plus Block is such a basic, fundamental skill that changing it would alter the balance of many other parts of the game.

I also agree that Block isn't necessarily the best skill. Guard probably holds that position, with Dodge and Side Step in competition. In previous editions, Stand Firm was the best skill (with the risk-free dodge element).

Wrestle has gone some way to toning down Block anyway. As much as needs doing IMO. Wrestle is a great anti-grind skill. Quite a nuisance against slow teams like Dwarfs and Orcs. I'm surprised more people haven't used it to this effect. I know if I ran a Skaven / Elf / Slann team in a league I would load my linos up with Wrestle.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon May 04, 2009 6:16 pm

Wrestle is skill #2 on my PE team for linos 1-4, right after Kick, Side Step, Side Step and Side Step. On my High Elf team, it'll be #1 for numbers 3 and 4.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Mon May 04, 2009 6:21 pm

Otake wrote:I agree with mattski that Block should be nerfed. I agree too that such nerfing involve nerfing of Dodge and Tackle (and perhaps Sidestep). In addition, you will have to reconsider the cost of all the Teams lists' positional players starting with Block (and there we have the 80k human Blitzer

The downside of Wrestle is that it leaves you open to fouling, which is rather common in LRB5.

I'm actually testing with a few friends the following rules :

Block allows the attacker to transform "Both Down" into "Pushed Back" Result.

Dodge doesn't work anymore on a !Pow result.

Tacle becoming useless under these new rules, it now allows you to change a "Pushed Back" result into a "!Pow" (not Pow) result only during a Block (not in a Blitz)

To buff up Wrestle a bit, it's now this skill that negates Dodge on a Dodge roll

On a !Pow result, the only injury the Defender can get is "Stunned". Using Piling On induce a normal Injury roll.

+ several minor changes on Juggernaut, Fend, etc.

Wow these changes will be massive. Dwarfs and chaos dwarfs will have a field day.

and fwiw I've found there is a lot less fouling in LRB5, dirty player isn't as good, you don't get +1 for the player doing the foul any more, yet the odds of getting sent off are essentially the same apparently

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon May 04, 2009 8:45 pm

Grumbledook wrote:and fwiw I've found there is a lot less fouling in LRB5, dirty player isn't as good, you don't get +1 for the player doing the foul any more, yet the odds of getting sent off are essentially the same apparently

Actually, LRB5 has better odds of getting sent off than any set of rules without IGMEOY, and any set of rules with IGMEOY if care is taken.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Mon May 04, 2009 8:54 pm

that is why I said apparently ;]

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Mon May 04, 2009 9:22 pm

Block don't need to be changed. Wrestle, Juggernaut are skills where you can just skip "both down" result.

If leagues still have problems with Block, then the coaches are to "oldschool" not trying to break it with all new skills in LRB5.

jammydodger · Post by **jammydodger** » Tue May 05, 2009 8:31 am

stashman wrote:Block don't need to be changed. Wrestle, Juggernaut are skills where you can just skip "both down" result.

If leagues still have problems with Block, then the coaches are to "oldschool" not trying to break it with all new skills in LRB5.

not sure that if something in the rules doesn't appear to work (and not just amongst one group - block is considered very, if not too, powerful by many) that you should blame it on the players. part of building a good ruleset is changing those rules in response to the players, not necessarily changing your players to suit the ruleset - although that does have a far more sinister and gw-ish feel to it.

jammer / cws