Why's everyone so down on fouling?

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CplSaint
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Why's everyone so down on fouling?

Post by CplSaint »

It's blood bowl, people! There ought to be MORE casualties!
Fouling allows a team to get an extra casualty per turn, and it's quite in character for a player to kick someone while they're down.
Sure, it's upsetting if your star player is killed by half a dozen goblins laying into you while stunned, but it's not all that likely... and even if you are upset, it just shows your strategic skill that you can ignore this problem and still win.
I had two players killed in my last tournament over a dozen games, and I play skaven - the turnover of players ought to be far higher. Apart from anything else, fouling is an excellent way for rookie teams to 'even the odds' against veteran teams, which I know a lot of people have problems with.
So give me one good reason why fouling ought to be penalised more... ;)

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Post by Remco »

Effective punishment = chance of being caught * severity of punishment.

Chance of being caught: 1/6 (1/2 after the first foul)
Severity of punishment: player sent off (and a turnover)

Effective punishment for a foul: next to nothing.

A decent(!) coach would only risk a turnover after all the important moves are done, so the punishment of a turnover is neglectable.

The punishment of a player sent of is only for the current drive, as the fouling coach presumably has reserve players. As he isn't forced to play with one man less the whole game (as in real life), the effective punishment is very low (compared to real life).

Even if the player is sent off (a slim chance), the effect of the foul is (most of the time) far greater than the punishment.

Ergo, playing dirty is rewarded above playing fair. Besides the moral dilemma, a true unbalance in the game, imho.

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Post by CplSaint »

Hmm... but surely playing dirty is half the fun of blood bowl? After all, the Bright Crusaders will always stay in mid-table position 'until they shape up and learn to play dirty!'

While it's possible to argue that the
'Effective punishment of a foul is next to nothing'
It's equally valid to argue that one ought to factor in how useful the foul is likely to be. After all, it's very rare that a player is all alone and surrounded by enemy players - even if they are, that means that the rest of your players have pretty much a clear pitch in which to score.
Thus, most players are pretty safe from a foul.

It's fairly rare for a player to have more than +3 to a foul attempt, so on a fairly average player (say a human lineman), the fouler needs to roll six or more on two dice -slightly better than even chances. Then, he's got slightly better than even chances of knocking the palyer out for the drive/game. I really don't think that the effort of causing a foul is worth the risk of leaving your endzone less well-defended.
Even if you put in a catcher instead, you're more likely to get through armour but only equally likely to hurt them. Against Big Guys, who in my experience get more than their fair share of fouls inflicted on them, the risk is even higher, since you need more players to increase your chances to anywhere near high enough to pay off.
So, to look back on your equation, we ought to write:

Usefulness of a foul = (Potential damage - risk taken)/Effective punishment.

I also disagree that the punishment of a player sent off is only for one drive - unless the coach has specifically worked into his strategy players being sent off, his reserves are needed to replace hurt players. If he has taken this into consideration, the 1/2 chance of being sent off for multiple fouls is enough deterrent - few rookie coaches have many reserves, and veteran coaches with multiple reserves are more likely to take casualties because they're playing tougher opponents (In the vast majority of cases).
While it's impossible to quantify potential damage and risk taken, I think most of us would agree that it's pretty rare that you're going to gain much from committing a foul except keeping up a grand old tradition of the game!
Nevertheless, thanks for the considered answer! :)

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Post by Remco »

First of all, I want to thank you for your well-arguemented reply. (No joke)

My question to you is: have you ever been in a game with dirty players?
Because if you did, you would know that the chances of being injured by such a player are not well: with only one assist he can hurt a AV8 player on a 7 or more (58% chance). If he breaks armour with that, he only needs a 6 or more (72% chance) to get that player out of the field for the remainder of the drive. This way, he has about 42% chance of removing an opposing player for the remainder of the drive, while his chance of being dismissed is only 17%. Doesn't seem a fair deal to me, especially as there isn't a "anti-skill" for Dirty Player.

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Post by neoliminal »

My main concern for fouling is that it is much more advantageous for older, established teams to foul than it is for rookie teams. Already at a disadvantage, fouling can literally take apart the rookie team, leaving a game that isn't fun for either side. Image a team of 200 TR Orcs vs. a 100 TR rookie woodelf team. It's gruesome to think what would happen to those woodelves if fouling were easier.

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Post by DoubleSkulls »

I just played a game, my TR 200+ Orcs vs TR100 Chaos. I got 5 casualties even though I couldn't foul (handicap result).

If I'd been able to foul it probably would have added another couple onto that figure since I've got 15 players in the team so who cares if a couple get sent off.

As it is fouling has a poor return unless you have dirty player. If even if the eye isn't on you you've got a 1/6 chance of getting sent off against a 1/6 chance of getting a casualty if you get through armour - so the odds are against it.

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Post by shaniepoo »

I dont think there is anything wrong with fouling. It's you foul them...or they'l foul you. And you can garan'dam'ty that they aint going to be botherd about being sent of the pitch when they take out your star player. Its part of the game

"To foul, or not to foul? Thet is the question"

And they answer is FOUL!!!!!!! :pissed:

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Post by manusate »

I like myself the concept of Dirty Player decreasing the odds of getting caught, rather than increasing the chances of hurting another player. The DPs shouldn´t be hunter-killers. They just manage to stay on the field no matter how dirty they play.

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Post by Marcus »

My problem with fouling is it's cheap and it's boring.

I derive a lot more enjoyment from playing to score than playing to kill. If I want to play to kill I'll go play Quake. Games that degenerate into foul fests hold no interest for me whatsoever as it basically becomes a question of who can roll the most 8+ rolls. That's too much of a lottery for a game of skill like Bloodbowl IMO.

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Post by shaniepoo »

I agree that you shouldnt just play to foul but if there is a stray oponent on the ground -lets say a fat bearded dwarf scum :evil: - then weres the harm in giving him a quick kick in the head as you run by.
Also if you are playing with a weak team like goblins, its just nature to have half the team run over to a stronger player who is down -say another dwarf scumbag- and start jumping up an down on him.
If you dont want to foul then play a goody two shoes team like high elves, just dont expect an orc or chaos team to be so kind.

If you see a dwarf on his back...KICK HIM! :pissed:

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Post by Da Scum »

If you're the coach playing a weak team, say the goblins or halflings, vs. a dwarf team, what are the odds in a straight up attack you're even taking him down? Let alone getting him off the pitch... Anyway, there fouling can become more of an equalizer, as the weaker team needs any chance to remove an opponent. Meanwhile the dwarves are less likely, as an ejection hurts them more than getting the casualty in the first place.

Fouling has it's strategy and place, even in the CFL, NFL or AFL for that matter, let alone the bloodbowl leagues out there.

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Post by valedictor »

I think that fouling generally works quite well, and is on the whole reasonably well balanced.

To make things a little more interesting in my local league, we implemented the following:

If a player is sent off, you are not permitted to replace him numerically (i.e: you can only field 10 players next drive)... gives a coach a bit more cause for thought before fouling.

We reintroduced the sneaky/blatant foul option from 2nd edition, just to make things a bit more interesting. Although probably not as advisable if there are very low armoured teams in the league, as the fouling team will minimise their chance of getting spotted by choosing sneaky foul, while not significantly reducing their chances of breaking armour. Not a problem in my league, as our teams all have armour 8+ or more. (on average)

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Post by neoliminal »

Da Scum wrote:Anyway, there fouling can become more of an equalizer, as the weaker team needs any chance to remove an opponent.
This seems like a common myth, so I'm going to address it. I don't know of any player who when faced with a weaker team does not return fouls. Say it's Dwarves vs. Goblins. The goblins are going to foul anything they can get prone, where the dwarves have the luxery of choosing from numerous downed opponents, so they choose the best.

What ends up happening is that the Dwarves are removing the Goblin's best players from the pitch, while the goblins are lucky to take a Longbeard off. Compound that to the damage caused when the dwarves get the numerical advantage from blocking and...

Let's just say I've never seen a Goblin team out foul a higher rated opponent.

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Post by Remco »

Valedictor, your rule gives me an idea:

Fouling players get SPP for injuries as normal, but when sent off they can't be replaced the rest of the match (ie. you have to field one man less the rest of the game). It's like getting a red card in a football/soccer game.

This way, the fouling coaches get their wish that fouls can generate SPP's, but it keeps them from getting into a fouling frenzy.

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Post by Ghost of Pariah »

Well Neo, that's true but what happens when the 100 TR Dwarfs face vs the 250 TR Goblins?

IMO fouling DOES become an effective equalizer in those cases.

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