Which squire would you prefer then?

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
yes I promised it would be the last Brettonian poll, but dammit you forced my hand.
I'm hoping to get 81 votes, like Darksons poll on whether to even have Brettonians in the game or not.
Come on. If I understand the position of the hive mind then I won't have to ask again.

So, my question is this:
Given the completely hypothetical situation that below team was about to become official and you couldn't prevent it.
And given that only the squire/yeoman position was up for discussion, and the rest of the team looked like this:
0-2 6339 Blitzer block, juggernaut, dauntless GS
0-2 7338 Errant Blitzer (or Runner) block, catch GS
0-16 6337 lineman loner GA
...Which version of the yeoman/squire position would you prefer?

Please do not let thoughts about brokenness or weakness factor into this. We have no indication from playtest that either state is close.
Just choose which one would give the coolest team!

Thanks
Martin

[Fronko]

Man, you are REALLY trying, arent you?

Voted for surehands with pass skills. I believe there is much strength access on te team already, that´s why passing skills and a 0-4 surehands position seemd to emphasize a more more running type of play, which I would like to see in this team ...

[voyagers_uk]

I voted Wrestle option 1, however I agree with Fronko about the Strength access and would prefer it to be 6 3 3 8 Wrestle GP

[Snew]

This team should have no access to passig skills. Passing would be cowardly and not in line with these egomaniacs.

[Darkson]

Of the 4 options, #3 is the best of the bad lot, but I'd prefer them just to have G access, and the Runner to lose Catch and gain Sure Hands.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
thanks for your replies and votes.
I hope to be getting more!

Despite the talk of "this team has too many positions", the squire split is doing pretty well so far.

Fronko said:
>Man, you are REALLY trying, arent you?
Well, since that can mean several things, I think everybody will agree on that

>Voyager suggested 6338 wrestle GP.
Different strokes I guess. I lot of people have their own spin on this.
But IMO, wrestle and P access point in different directions, and I want it to be clear from the statline what a squire/yeoman is supposed to do on the pitch.

Snew said:
>Passing would be cowardly and not in line with these egomaniacs.
Well, the egomaniacs aren't doing the passing. Their squires are.
Much like missile fire in the Brettonian army.
From the votes, it seems that the "no-P" faction is outnumbered.

Darkson said:
>but I'd prefer them just to have G access, and the Runner to lose Catch
>and gain Sure Hands.
Fair enough - different strokes it seems.
But I will not create a positional with just G access. It would be the only one in LRB5 (i.e. touchy), and it is by no means a required nerf balance-wize.

Cheers
Martin

[Snew]

Snew said:
>Passing would be cowardly and not in line with these egomaniacs.
Well, the egomaniacs aren't doing the passing. Their squires are.
Much like missile fire in the Brettonian army.
From the votes, it seems that the "no-P" faction is outnumbered.

I but you'll let them catch the balls though. QBs are the leaders in teams. In fact, passing skills are where Leader is found. There's a reason for that. You claim to be looking for flavor and fluff along with playability but you're not doing either.

From all the 'different strokes" comments with their ensuing blah blah blah, it seems you already have your mind made up so why don't you do whatever it is you do and quit blathering on and on about Brettonians and what we're going to call their rerolls and such other nonsense.

Just post your Plasmoid team A, B or whatever and be done with it.

[David Bergkvist]

I but you'll let them catch the balls though.

The reason for this is, as has been stated, that the knights are too lazy to pick up the ball themselves. Being handed the ball requires less effort. According to this idea, however, the squires shouldn't pass the ball, only hand it off, because catching a ball might require them to jump or whatnot. And maybe the knights shouldn't be particularly good at receiving the hand off -- if they fail they can always blame the squire for handing it off incorrectly and thus have little motivation to train in receiving hand-offs.

QBs are the leaders in teams. In fact, passing skills are where Leader is found.

Good point. Maybe the team should have squires to do the menial work of picking up the ball and knights to do the glorious work of passing it. The question then is of course who they should pass to: they shouldn't pass to other knights because then those other knights would have to jump etc to catch it, but if they pass to a squire, then that squire would score a TD and thereby steal fame from the knights. Maybe they should pass to a squire who then hands it off to a knight who scores the TD. But I don't think it's possible to create a team where this behaviour is encouraged without adding new skills, but here's a try:
0-16: Lineman: 40k, 6 3 3 7, G
0-4 Blitzer: 110k, 7 3 3 8, GS, Block, Dauntless
0-4 Blitzer's Squire: 60k, 6 3 3 7, G, Catch
0-2 Thrower: 90k, 6 3 3 8, GP, Block, Pass
0-2 Thrower's Squire: 60, 6 3 3 7, G, Sure Hands

Notes:
1. G access only for the squires is not a typo: the coach should be encouraged not to receive SPPs with these players.
2. Yes, this is very many positionals, but the squires aren't exactly better than the linemen of most teams.

it seems you already have your mind made up so why don't you do whatever it is you do and quit blathering on and on about Brettonians and what we're going to call their rerolls and such other nonsense.

On the other hand, his team does change each time he suggests it, so apparantly he has not made up his mind entirely.

[Warpstone]

If passing access for squires is so onerous, would swapping it for agility access still be a sticking point? You could justify it fluff-wise: Squires are less-armoured and need to be more nimble to do their jobs properly.

Although, in my opinion, this team would get far more efficient with ag-access on their dedicated ball retrievers. I've hardly used the squire to make any passes, but if I was able to get him dodge, it would make it much easier on defence to pick up the ball after a quick sack.

Removing catch from the runner would completely nerf the play-style of the team. How is this hard to make sense of in terms of fluff? Knights want to carry the ball for glorious TDs, but it behooves them to worry about picking it up: hence Catch seems an ideal skill.

[Darkson]

If passing access for squires is so onerous, would swapping it for agility access still be a sticking point?

That was taken out very early, as a player getting normal access to AG skills would soon be doing all the scoring (plus Blodging), which is not matching the fluff for the team.

Removing catch from the runner would completely nerf the play-style of the team. How is this hard to make sense of in terms of fluff? Knights want to carry the ball for glorious TDs, but it behooves them to worry about picking it up: hence Catch seems an ideal skill.

Ideally, there'd be a skill to help receive hand-offs only. I can see Knights taking hand-offs, it's the jumping around to catch the pass that Snew mentioned I can't stomach.
Having said that, I'd have thought that the Knights would rather recover the ball themselves, rather than have to get close to one of those smelly oiks to take it off them.

[Warpstone]

Ideally, there'd be a skill to help receive hand-offs only. I can see Knights taking hand-offs, it's the jumping around to catch the pass that Snew mentioned I can't stomach.
Having said that, I'd have thought that the Knights would rather recover the ball themselves, rather than have to get close to one of those smelly oiks to take it off them.

Maybe I should go read the description again, but I always imagined Catch as the player having a good blend of body control and hand-eye coordination. It doesn't mean that he's making acrobatic catches (that's what diving catch is for), but rather that he has the skills to pluck the ball out of the air.

Hence, a heavily armoured player would more resemble a big tight end catching a crossing pattern, rather than a wide receiver who makes a leaping one-handed catch.

[Darkson]

Hence, a heavily armoured player would more resemble a big tight end catching a crossing pattern, rather than a wide receiver who makes a leaping one-handed catch.

Now try explaining that to someone who watches proper football.

[fen]

Or a proper sport like Rugby.

[Warpstone]

Hence, a heavily armoured player would more resemble a big tight end catching a crossing pattern, rather than a wide receiver who makes a leaping one-handed catch.

Now try explaining that to someone who watches proper football.

Actually, I think I can:

It's like the difference between a Target-man and a nimble striker. They're both centre-forwards and they both need the ability to control the ball when it gets passed to them. The prototypical Target-man is a tall, heavy player who can possess and hold on to the ball using his sheer size to head/flick the ball and guard it, whereas a pacy striker relies on a slick first touch to steer the ball into his run. They both "catch" the ball as part of their job, but the Targetman is like a heavily armoured knight and the striker is akin to a Gutter Runner (unless he's English... in which case the striker is more akin to a thrice-niggled ex-liverpudlian).

[Mo]

Hi all,
I'm hoping to get 81 votes, like Darksons poll on whether to even have Brettonians in the game or not.

Of course 61 of those folks don't think there should be a Bretonnian list at all, so voting on squires seems a bit redundant