Rant-New Attibribute

[Colin]

So this will be a bit of a rant so if you're really not interested in it don't bother posting. I have always felt that thoug 3ed did streamline things from 2ed quite well, it was too simplified in the end. The biggest problem IMO was the reduction in Attributes. The MA and SP (sprint) numbers were added together to get the new MA, fine, but the biggest problem was with the dropping of TS and CL and having everything depend on AG. Now this isn't another call to bring back TS and CL, talking to JJ at GenCon he said he didn't like the way stats were in earlier editions because they were too similar to other games (ie WHFB with WS and BS) and I guess that's true. Taking away TS and CL made it a little less like WH (though ironically they went with the WH influenced positional names and WH looking minis), but this created a problem of balance. In 2ed with TS and CL, for esample you could have an elf thrower with high TS but average AG, but in 3ed with everything dne with AG rolls, all elf players had to have AG 4. The fix was to lower armour and increase the sost so to get CAS that wouldn't be that easy to replace so to balance out the AG4 on the whole roster. Unfortunately, this is one of the biggest complaints of people who play elves (or even Skaven), that bashy teams are too tough 'cuz they decimate their elves/skavens and it's so hard to replace them and have been constantly calling for the reduction of bashiness in BB. Now you could bring back TS and CL to try to fix this, but that would be adding two Attributes which were based on WHFB ones anyway. So to keep it simple but help balance things a bit better, keep AG for dodging and things that require body movement, etc (which is what Agility is supposed to be about) and add one new Attribute for handling the ball, it could be called Dexterity (or Manual Dexterity, so either DX or MD). I think another thing that could be done would be to drop the +1's for doing everything (well almost everything) so that there can be more of a range in stats so that 4 wouldn't be the highest starting AG or DX. This would also simplify the game in a good way in that there would be no need for the list of all the modifiers for doing things like picking up the ball, throwing, etc, you don't get +1 for doing any of it and the only -'s would be fvr TZs/ There would be more of a range in stats for the rosters, elf throwers could have AG3 but DX 5, compared to a human thrower with AG3 and DX4 (elves are supposed to be better throwers, they had TS of +2 in 2ed). Cathcers would be the only positions with both high DX and AG since they need to both catch the ball and dodge well. So picking up, throwing, catching, and intercepting the ball all go off DX while most other skills use AG (including diving catch as it's not just a question of using your hands to catch, you have to dive to get your body in position, so use AG)
This opens up being able to have a range of numbers for Attributes for each race instead of having only one or 2 numbers for a race. I would also increase the range of ST beyond 6 like it was in 2ed as you are only using the difference in blocking (which is what ST is mainly used for). Humans could go back to having a range of 2-4 for physical stats (of course not including MA or AV in this), etc AV could be bumped up a bit for some race positions (as it's more of a reflection of Toughness than actual armour worn) and could have a max of 10 for a bit more variety.
The interesting thing about DX is that you could easily manage who would be able to handle the ball (such as BGs and SWs,etc) quite easily without having to be really restictive in skills or adding new skill discriptions (such as no ball handler/no hands, etc) or reducing AG (like with the Rat Ogre).
A stat of 1 could be given to all BGs, for example, and they would be ineffective at handling the ball and a stat of zero could be used for those who can't handle the ball at all (such as those with SWs), the ball would just scatter from the square containing a player with DX of 0.
Anyway that's my rant, I think it would be an effective way of balancing out the team roster (no need for rosters to have all the same stats like 'zons or Norse) and giving more variety to the look of each roster. You're using the same mechanic for rolling DX or AG so adding a new stat doesn't add any new rules for the game so not adding more complexity.
Anyway, like I said this is a rant, not expecting BB to be changed like this (I know it won't, just throwing the idea out there). Like I said if you aren't interested or don't like the idea, don't bother posting, this thread isn't trying to start a flame war.

[Joemanji]

Like the idea a lot.

Not too sure about the name though ... isn't dexterity quite similar to agility? I'd prefer a name like Ball Handling (abrev. BH or "Ball"), or as a second choice Technique.

[Joemanji]

I think another thing that could be done would be to drop the +1's for doing everything (well almost everything) so that there can be more of a range in stats so that 4 wouldn't be the highest starting AG or DX. This would also simplify the game in a good way in that there would be no need for the list of all the modifiers for doing things like picking up the ball, throwing, etc, you don't get +1 for doing any of it and the only -'s would be fvr TZs

Yep, this would be really simple to achieve. The +1 modifier to an AG roll is by far the standard occurence in BB, and so you have to wonder why it was not just absorbed directly into the Agility Table. It would be simple to shift the scale along by one to incorporate the +1 mod.

[The Florist]

Somehow the attribute name "ball handling" strikes me as appropriate.
Or ball control possibly.
Edit: Oh, good thing I read Nazgit's post before making my own.
After all, we don't want me to look stupid.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

I like it too. Ball Handling or Ball Control sounds good.

This is one of those things that makes so much sense that it will never happen. It should have been addressed in the Vault.

[The Florist]

In all fairness it would complicate the game slightly more, what with one more attribute to keep track of, look up and so. Slightly.
But if there's a knee-jerk reaction to keep everything as simple as possible...

[Joemanji]

Ok, how would you apply this new characteristic?

The main problem I can see is that if you give a catcher high values of Ball Handling, he also becomes a great thrower - is this the desired result? I guess it is not too hard a leap to accept that a player who is gifted "with the ball" can both throw and catch. Or perhaps we can invert that. Is it sensible to suggest that a great catcher cannot put those good hands to some use when it comes to unloading the ball?

Ok, so going by 2nd edition stats, elves (or Pro Elves in the current background) had the same AG as a human, but a higher value in Ball (BA since BH already means something?). They also had a lower Armour Value, but a higher sprint. I guess the latter would have to convert to Agility skill access, since SP is no longer a characteristic in the game. So we are looking at something like this:

Code: Select all

              MV  ST  AG  BA  AV
Elf Lineman   6   3   3   4   7

There, IMO, you are looking at a player who is worth the same (50K) as a Human lineman, who would have stats 6 3 3 3 8. In fact, I'd say the human possibly looks better.

[Joemanji]

The other really obvious change that springs to mind is to make Gutter Runners AG 4 and BA 3.

[Colin]

Sorry, but I really don't think there is anything wrong with using Manual Dexterity for the name of the attribute, Ball Handling or whatever just seems dumb to me, we are talking about the physical hand-eye co-ordination here, and no, it's not the same as agility (that has to do with body movement).
And the arguement that a catcher would be good at throwing if he had a high MD ( stands for Manual Dexterity, since you D&D mentality people can't get your head around Dexterity meaning something else), a better situation than wth the current one where all elves are equally good at throwing, catching and dodging because of the AG4 on all of them. Remember throwers have the pass skill and passing skill access to make them better throwers and catchers have catch, etc.
Anyway, doesn't really matter as it's just an idea thrown out there, nothing will come of it, though I do believe it would improve the game. Might come up with a list of rosters with the MD attribute added. BTW, I would do it in this order; MA ST MD AG AV.
Naz, I said that AV couild be adjusted as well, as wouldn't necessarily be needed to balance things out as drastically as now, so elves might not have AV 7, also who says human linemen would have a MD of 3? Linemen don't handle the ball, that's the point, you could give them a MD of 2, just because they are humans doesn't mean that all physical stats have to be 3.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

The human linemen in Nazgit's example have MD of 3 just to keep them the same as they are now for the sake of the example.

And I don't know what "D&D Mentality" has to do with it because if you had played D&D (or at least played it properly) Dexterity is used for manual dexterity probably as muxh as or more than agility.

Ball Handling is popular because that's what it's called in football. A player who fumbles a lot is said to need work on his "ball handling" or "ball control."
I also think that avoiding the word Dexterity or Agility would make it clearer what the trait is for...what's the big deal?

[gken1]

good idea but i think it would be pretty hard to integrate properly.

[Colin]

Just my opinion, just as using "Ball Control" is your's, nothing to get worked up over as this is never going to be used anywhere anyway.
I prefer to consider it a physical attribute (manual dexterity) as compared to something more like a skill (which is what Ball Handling or Ball Control sounds like to me). Like I said, my opinion, you have your preference, doesn't make any difference in the long run. Though I think that this might work better to balance out the teams, it will never be used, so we could call it the "X-factor', it makes no difference, just stating my preference. And like I said at the start, didn't intend to have this thread turn into a flame war.
You and Naz have your preference, I have mine, but for discussion sake, how about we just call it "New Attribute" (NA) for now and not worry about it.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

Going off topic here but this is such a perfect example I can't resist.

Where did I get "worked up"?

Where am I "starting a flame war"?


Do you think I sit slamming my keyboard foaming at the mouth everytime I type a response?

I'd really like to know how I got this rep and what in that last post indicates aggression at all?


It only happens with you people. On other boards I do not have this issue so I really find it hard to believe that the problem is 100% mine.

And situations like this only reinforce it.

Torg ios reacting to the name Dark Lord more than the content of the post.

And there's certain people here who go out of their way to perpetrate this image on me. Then they claim I am "acting" like a victim.

I think this right here shows something isn't right. I didn't even come close to attacking you, Torg, and somehow you feel the need to tell me to calm down and not start a flame war?

For what?

disagreeing with you?

This needs to end.

[Tritex]

OK Guys 'Clam it' I don't see any aggro or burning here, just regular debate!

Torg, dude you gotta learn to split up your paragraphs (easier on the eyes) but overall I think you make some great points.

I like the idea of a seperate skill to split up Agility. Basically all of the above agree also (whatever you call it).

What you are talking about is Dexterity relating foot / body flexability & control and another for hand & eye co-ordination which are not necessarily equal in most sports people. (e.g. Soccer player Vs baseball player).

Problem you hvae is where do you draw the defining line between skills as only Dodging accounts for foot and body co-ordination whereas all the rest are hand & eye (or ball control) unless you implement some sort of modifier for 'going for it' as per below:

DODGING - Foot & Body
PICK-UP - Hand & Eye
INTERCEPTION - Hand & Eye
PASSING - Hand & Eye
CATCHING - Hand & Eye

[Munkey]

Sounds pretty good to me - wouldn't be too hard to integrate into the main rules but rebalancing the teams could be more tricky.

I have to say i'd prefer Ball Handling/Control too - hope this is not too aggravating but it just sounds more representative of the actions it relates to.

Not sure about the ST thing as having a higher range of ST could cause average ST teams trouble - high ST means it needs a lot of assists to get a decent block against the player. Even lots of ST4 or 5 can be tricky to play against for some teams.