New Handicap Suggestion

redlizard · Post by **redlizard** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:10 pm

Skummy wrote:I think that the ability to pick a handicap at extreme TR differential is a key component to the current rules that needs to stay.

One of the reasons that people didn't seriously regard the FUMBBL Dark Elf team was that its opponents could have regularly picked Virus against it. The potential to do this is a powerful incentive to dump niggled players, and needs to stay as a mechanic in the game.

You could add in another option of "pick any 1 result" for 75 TRD (or 60 or whatever...) That way an extreme TRD could always pick Virus or whatever was needed against that team.

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:34 pm

OK, my few pence worth.

In Zombie's non-random system a coach either has the ability to manipulate his TR or schedule to get the results he wants, or

Spends ages deciding on his best handicaps, some of my league would spend a good 15-30 mins pre-game picking the most advantageous handicaps rather than getting on with it (no thanks).

If the points values were incresed this would encourage this even more otherwise bad choices would be equivalent to no handicaps at all.

Milo's system provides a good feel for the power of the handicaps but reduces this picking the result overhead and gets on with the game.

That said a bit of player choice is not bad thing, I quite liked the post in the middle of the thread (sorry forgot your name

) with a limited few options such as an extra apoth.

This would be particularly good in protecting your team from damage where it is almost unaviodable - eg. extra apoths against bashy teams or FF increases where you are likely to lose some.

This would allow players to choose between evening up the odds (rolling on the table), or protecting the team (picking from the options).

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 1:08 am

Well said Munkey.

-Balrog

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 7:37 am

I'd support Milo's system if there were at least a couple of (overpriced of course) events that you could pick without rolling.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:03 am

I have to agree with Zombie here. There should be very high-cost items that you could pick.

I like the fact that currently, after a TR difference of over a 100 points, a team with lots of niggles (which is a natural result of the current aging system) will get butchered thanks to the Virus. The top-ranking FumBBLe teams prove this - anyone can see that for example the dark elf team used as an example around here can do nothing against a team ranked lower than 100points below them. Too many nigglers (ergo: aging system works, but I digress...).

So, similar results should exist now too. It's a simple result of the following: with a huge TR difference the higher ranked team hardly considers the game to be important, while the lower team easily considers it to be one of the most important games of the season and will try anything to win.

High-difference matches should not be SPP-machines for the better teams.

Tysonium · Post by **Tysonium** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 5:49 am

That said a bit of player choice is not bad thing, I quite liked the post in the middle of the thread (sorry forgot your name ) with a limited few options such as an extra apoth.

That was mine.

Like I said, I prefer the random table for the most part... I just like a few player options that don't rely on randomness, and thought that the TRR, +1 FF, and apoth were useful without being overbalancing. I would not have a problem with a 75-point "choose anything you want from the tables" option as well.

Tysonium

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 6:55 pm

Pariah wrote: Milo, what is the general feeling of the BBRC on your system? Do they like it or will you be doing a 3rd draft?

Mixed opinions. Most generally agree that it's better than the current system, but that doesn't mean that they think it's better than other systems being discussed.

My league is testing it out this season, and it received rave reviews from my coaches. Hopefully 400 games or so of data will give me some ideas on what needs to be tweaked.

Incidentally, the second draft, which may have been overlooked by some (go to the 1st page to link to it) moves all the results onto a d66 table, so there's no longer a problem with non-standard dicing mechanisms.

Milo

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 7:07 pm

Let me just say that there's been lots of good feedback on this thread (as well as some of the usual acromonious discourse I've come to expect from TBB.) I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier -- for some reason I wasn't getting notifications that people were responding to the thread.

Anyways, my league is playtesting draft 2 this season. Some of the coaches have also pointed out results they feel belong on other tables -- unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of disagreement about it.

I do like the idea of some basic priced "automatic" handicaps that you don't have to roll for. I might include that in a future revision.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sat Apr 05, 2003 3:06 am

Milo wrote:Some of the coaches have also pointed out results they feel belong on other tables -- unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of disagreement about it.

Read: Milo disagrees.

Seriously, name one event that some people here said to be in another table, and others disagreed with.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Sat Apr 05, 2003 1:44 pm

Zombie wrote:
Milo wrote:Some of the coaches have also pointed out results they feel belong on other tables -- unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of disagreement about it.
Read: Milo disagrees.

Seriously, name one event that some people here said to be in another table, and others disagreed with.

Contrary to Zombie's opinion, I was not even referring to my opinions. Here's a snippet from some feedback I've gotten from one of my coaches:

I'd switch That Boys Got Talent (to 25) and Greased Shoes (to 10). Yes,
Greased shoes
really hoses teams that only have one ball handler, but most teams have
two, and
being able to add a Big Guy (if you don't have one), or Wardancer,
Black
Orc, etc,
hurts everyone.

5) I'd pull Bribe the Ref completely (from the middle table) and add
"Get a free apothecary for this match only, may have 2!" Much better,
doesn't
really hurt the leading team but helps the underdogs considerably.
Allows you
to 'waste' an apoth to stop a badly hurt on a key player.

6) Under Scrutiny is lame. How about "Get a free wizard! (may have 2)"

Another coach of mine is convinced that the weather scroll is so good it deserves to be a 25 point roll, since it's the best of the 10 point ones. So my statement really meant that many coaches value specific rolls on the table differently. Some think that TBGT is worth more than 10 points, others think that Weather Scroll is worth more. For every coach I made happy by moving one result to another bracket, I'm almost certain to piss another one off. That's not to say that I won't do it, but I don't want to do that until I've gotten some hard feedback from in-game testing.

As I mentioned, my league is playtesting the table as it stands. When our season is over, I intend to get feedback from all the coaches on the new handicap table, and will revise it based on that. I do like the idea of having a mid-range handicap on each level that the team can simply choose if they want, but I'm not sure I'll add that now.

Milo

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Sat Apr 05, 2003 2:18 pm

I agree: That boy's got talent is too good for a TRD of 10. If you take a positional player you easily compensate (or in the case of Bull Centaur, Wardancer or Witch Elf even turns the odds) your TRD. Either move it to 25 or change the text, so that the coach may only gets an extra Lineman.

Weather Scroll is very good, too, but you have to utilize it toughtfully. Neverhteless, you get to tinker around with game mechanics for mere 10TRD. If the opposing team has less players switch to Swealtering heat, if the other is a passing team switch to blizzard when they gonna score, or clear the weather for your own passing/running game.

Anyway, no comment on my tweaking suggestions I posted on page three?

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sat Apr 05, 2003 6:35 pm

Hi all,
sorry if I'm touching on point allready discussed, but I've only read the first page. But:
Why not simple try to make the 36 results on the handicap table equally powerful (more or less). Tne down some of the wildest ones, and improve some of the useless ones?

Martin

neverdodge · Post by **neverdodge** » Sat Apr 05, 2003 9:47 pm

plasmoid wrote:Hi all,
sorry if I'm touching on point allready discussed, but I've only read the first page. But:
Why not simple try to make the 36 results on the handicap table equally powerful (more or less). Tne down some of the wildest ones, and improve some of the useless ones?

Martin

I think the main idea is to give a better advantage when you got lot of team rating difference, than when you got low difference (11 for example)

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 8:20 pm

Why not add a Magic Helmet somewhere in your table Milo? Magic Helmets are cool, and give another way for players to get +1 AV.

-Balrog

SBG · Post by **SBG** » Mon May 12, 2003 8:57 pm

It's been a long process, but I finally completed my reading of this entire thread!

I think that it's a great step in the right direction, since I don't think the current table is of great help for TRD of 26-74. Zombie's idea also has good stuff in it, same with Relizard's, but I like Milo's one better, since it combines randomness with strategy (ie: the coach chossing how he spends his TRD points).

I'd really like to have more feedback from Milo's league as well as from the BBRC.

Fred