Block, Guard & Dodge modifications

[stashman]

I'm a big proponent of eliminating Big Guys altogether too. Let the Star Players exist to appease the fluff gods and JJ and get rid of the "rookie" Big Guys. Team sdon't need them anyway. Sorry Goblins and Halflings.

I have never ever played a game where a big guy did the diffrence between winning and loosing.

Don't take them away, there too much flavour.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

I'd love 7 stats personally. I'm a detail hound. But I don't think that will ever happen.

I think a surprising amount of coaches would like this once they'd get a hang of it.
But, I suppose it will never happen. It's too radical.

I think you're right and never say never.

IMO JJ is what is holding it back, but I think you're exactly right. Coaches would change. IMO a complete rebuild (done right, done without a Vault) would please a lot of veteran coaches and bring some back to the game. The newb coaches would either roll with it or not, but I think if the game was rebuilt to accommodate the current competitive style of play most would remain.

[Jural]

OK, I'll bite.

What 7 stats did you have in mind?

One for movement, one for armor, one for ball handling, one for agility ([dodging, leaping, etc.), one for strength, and one for blocking?

That's only 6, were you thinking of having a toughness, or bringing back sprint?

Personally, I think the game could be enhanced a long way just breaking apart agility and ball handling. I'd also like to see strength and blocking broken apart, so skilled elven blitzers and unskilled trolls block each other on a more even par (although the troll does much more if he knocks you down!)

But I think it's too complicated for the Blood Bowl players. We should be reducing stats not adding them. Maybe drop AV altogether and use double strength for armor breaks? Perhaps drop MA and everyone moves double their agility?

Hmm, that would lead to some pretty simple rosters! Some examples:

Human linemen ST 3, AG 3
Human catcher ST 3, AG 4 Catch, Dodge
Black Orc blocker ST 4, AG 2
Ogre ST 5, AG 2 Loner, Mighty Blow, TTM
Mummy ST 5, AG 1 Mighty Blow, Regenerate
Gutter Runner ST 2, AG 5 Dodge

Oh yeah, this is awesome! Think of the space that could be saved! I should post this as a serious suggestion and see if anyone gets on board.

Now, if only somebody could come up with 1 stat Blood Bowl

[Dark Lord (retired)]

But I think it's too complicated for the Blood Bowl players.

Why? Are you stupid? Do you want to play against other stupid people?

You are a Blood Bowl coach. Are you saying you are incapable of playing game with 6 ability scores?
You can't play D20 because it's too complicated? I hope you are joking with this as much as the rest of your thread.

6 stats for Blood Bowl would go a loooooooong way to solving some problems in the game. That and creating rosters that were all equal at rookie level.

[Joemanji]

6 stats.

MA and AV as we know it (but perhaps AV not on 2D6)
ST when blocking
Toughness when being blocked.
AG for dodging
Cool for everything else.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

AV on the D8.


In fact all skills in the D8. Doing an action should be roll your attribute or lower on a D8. Average in a attribute would be 4.

God that would be a dream come true. Simple, broad range, even incremental steps between numbers.


sigh...sadly just a dream, I suspect.

[Joemanji]

AV on the D8.

Asking before thinking myself. How would modifier skills such as MB tally with that?

In fact all skills in the D8. Doing an action should be roll your attribute or lower on a D8. Average in a attribute would be 4.

Is that necessary? D6 works well for me. The 16.6% chance of succeding or failing anything is part of what BB is about. Even a drop to 12.5% is quite a drop. Besides, GW = D6, so that is a pipe dream too far for me.

[Jural]

But I think it's too complicated for the Blood Bowl players.

Why? Are you stupid? Do you want to play against other stupid people?

You are a Blood Bowl coach. Are you saying you are incapable of playing game with 6 ability scores?

Please read the rest of my suggestion Dork Lord! I can't even handle the standard 4 abilities, and have found a way to reduce it down to 2. If you can't contribute to the solution (maybe use your gigantic mind to come up with 1 stat Blood Bowl?) then maybe you should keep quiet.

Real Men are at work here, and don't need your pansie 6 attributes! I'll keep one attribute and make it really big! That worked well for people who designed phallic architecture after all.

No, in all seriousness, I'm in favor of trying more attributes (see the previous page). I am legitimately curious as to what attributes you would add, as I personally didn't see an obvious 7th.

I'm not knocking your suggestion, just trying to learn more about it.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

AV on the D8.

Asking before thinking myself. How would modifier skills such as MB tally with that?

In fact all skills in the D8. Doing an action should be roll your attribute or lower on a D8. Average in a attribute would be 4.

Is that necessary? D6 works well for me. The 16.6% chance of succeding or failing anything is part of what BB is about. Even a drop to 12.5% is quite a drop. Besides, GW = D6, so that is a pipe dream too far for me.

Well you know I would go with D10 if I could (easy to calculate broad range etc.)

The way I see it, there is maximum of -9 possible from tackle zone modifiers for any action using agility, and I think -3 total from other mods in passing. That means the highest possible negative mod in the game is -12 on a player completely surrounded, throwing a long bomb in very sunny conditions. I'm sure somebody will find a way to make it -13 but anyway, the point is that the broader the range of the dice the more the attributes mean. At a certain point a player with AG 2 is equally good at passing as a player with AG 6. Using a D8 or a D6 pushes that point out to a higher extreme and makes the numbers more meaningful. What is the difference between AG 5 and AG 6? Not much; certainly much less than the difference between AG 2 and AG 3.
IMO that's not right and could be done much better.

Once you open things up like that you have more room to play and more room for balancing things like Ogres, Trolls, snotlings etc.

Add to that 6 attributes and you have a whole world of difference.



But all that said, you can't just take what we have add 2 more attributes to every race with the same arbitrary thought process as we currently have and expect everything to balance out.

Like I said in my PM. The current attributes for the races are complete mess and have no consistency. From an outsider's perspective they make no sense and seem almost arbitrary. AG 2 on a zombie vs. AG 1 on a troll. HUH? Wood Elves who are faster than Skaven. Humans as weak as Halflings.



The rules need to be fixed from the bottom up. The top down system we have is not working.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

No, in all seriousness, I'm in favor of trying more attributes (see the previous page). I am legitimately curious as to what attributes you would add, as I personally didn't see an obvious 7th.

I'm not knocking your suggestion, just trying to learn more about it.

Well Joe said 7. I think he went with 6 tho.

MA and AV as we know it (but perhaps AV not on 2D6)
ST when blocking
Toughness when being blocked.
AG for dodging
Cool for everything else.

If I were to add a 7th...which I wouldn't...it would be a Chaos Factor. How susceptible the player is to mutations. But I just pulled that out of my ass.

[Calthor]

Where would ball handling fall under?
Cool?

[Jural]

Where would ball handling fall under?
Cool?

I'm guessing cool... it's everything else!

[Papa Sebco]

About Block, Guard and Dodge.

I don't know how to modify these skills and, to be honest, I'm not sure they need to be modified.

According to me, the problem isn't that they are really really overpowered. The (small) problem is that most of players chose these skills first 'cause they are very often usefull. And, so, some other skills are rare on bloodbowl fields.

Well, I have a simple idea to try to change this a little : just let these skills as they are, but let's change their cost for Team Value : when a player chose Block, Dodge, or Guard, it costs 30.000 (and not 20.000) even if it doesn't need a double.

[stashman]

About Block, Guard and Dodge.

I don't know how to modify these skills and, to be honest, I'm not sure they need to be modified.

According to me, the problem isn't that they are really really overpowered. The (small) problem is that most of players chose these skills first 'cause they are very often usefull. And, so, some other skills are rare on bloodbowl fields.

Well, I have a simple idea to try to change this a little : just let these skills as they are, but let's change their cost for Team Value : when a player chose Block, Dodge, or Guard, it costs 30.000 (and not 20.000) even if it doesn't need a double.

Yes! Maybe have a skillprice on every skill (double or not price is what it costs, but have to roll double to get a diffrent skillcategory).


Some skills like Kick, Kick-off Return, Pass Block, Catch, Diving Catch, Hail Mary, Safe Throw, Multiple Block, Thick Skull would be more seen if the cost was 10K.

Here is why:

Kick - Its good, but it would be cool if everybody in a league hade it.

Kick-Off Return - Only one player in all of our teams has this skill, and its a dwarf runner.

Pass Block - Only seen on AG5 players or Nerves of Steel players. Not so useful if there is a lot of running teams.

Catch - Not worth 20K! Well you need it in the beging, but later on you have lots of rerolls for passing game.

Diving Catch - How takes it? Not many! Noone in our leage has it.

Hail Mary - A good "protective" skill, but is relly anyone taking it? Maybe a fifth skill on a thrower.

Safe Throw - Not bad when needed, but how many take the risk of passing over opponents if there is alternative ways.

Multiple Block - Good for treeman and death roller. And it stopps you from foolow up! Not good enough.

Thick Skull - A joke! Is there a coach that has taking it on a player?



And some more expensive skills:

Block, Dodge, Guard


Some combos should be expensive

Claw+Mighty Blow

[Jural]

Variable team rating for skills would work very well in our league. The entire league is stored on a database and updated regularly. Upgrading players automatically leads to new TV.

But I wonder how easy such a system would be for people who don't own a computer. I suppose as long as there are only three skill levels, it shouldn't matter.

Here would be my proposal.

Specialist Skill (e.g. Diving Catch, Hail Mary Pass, Pass Block)-

10k for normal access, 30k for doubles.

Normal skills (e.g. Fend, Pass, Sure Hands, Grab)

20k for normal access, 30k for doubles

Power skills (Dauntless, Block, Guard, Dodge, Side Step, etc.)

30k for normal access, 30k for doubles.

I like the doubles price at 30... it means each skill can only have one of three prices. It also means a player with three specialist advances is relatively cheap compared to a player with power skills.

Good idea, I think it has been proposed before, and I liked it then too. The next step would probably be to determine which skill goes into which grouping...