Slan team

[Longshot]

so do i Galak.

[Thadrin]

Just to make another point on the chaos all star/slann mix up, it was noted in the All Stars team description that they were once captained by a Snakeman...can't remember the name, but it was something very complicated with lots of Zs, and led to announcers calling him "Snakey".

I always thought the snake headed guy was Sanke Sauders myself....

[plasmoid]

Hi Galak,
I know how it goes: You like your team best, and I like mine
I have a very hard time figuring out how you came to the conclusion that my team looks a lot like an orc team.
The way I see it, our teams are pretty similar!

You said that I had only looked at the WHFB stats. Actually I looked at both. I did this to avoid removing myself from the "original stats". IMO, T4 players shouldn't have AV7 - but we'll get back to that.

Now, just as an excersize, let me (or us?) experiment with combining the 2 lineups:

>>The MA stats of all Slann players has already been adjusted for VLL.
>All Slann players have +1 to intercept rolls.

OK - this is exactly the same thing. The only reason I didn't use VLL is that it makes the players look like they have so many skills.
Still - thats just cosmetics.
Whichever version you fancy

>>0-12 Lineman 60K 6338 Leap,VLL GEN
> 0-12 Spawn 50K 6338 - G

Your linemen have leap, while I decided to have it only on the position players. Leap on linemen makes the team quite a bit better, but I have no problem with that.
Not a bad idea.

>>0-4 Catcher 80K 7247 Leap, Catch VLL GEN/AG
> 0-3 Swooping Eagles 70K 7248 Leap, SHands G,AG

0-3 or 0-4 is just a matter of the blockers. Both teams have 8 position players. Other than that, there are 2 things:
First, your catchers have catch, mine sure hands. I picked sure hands to let them swoop in and get the ball (like eagles). On the other hand, catch will make them better pass-blockers, and that (to me) is one of the main gimmicks of the team.
Catch suits me fine.

On the other hand, as mentioned, I think that AV7 on a T4 player is too much of a stretch.

So, to me, a good hybrid could be:
0-* Catchers 80K? 7248 Leap, Catch G,AG


>>0-4 Blitzer 100K 7338 Leap, D-Tackle, Jump Up, VLL GEN/ST
> 0-3 Pouncing Jaguars 90K 6338 Leap, Block G,AG

These are pretty different.
I know that your team is older than 2K1, and to me JumpUp+DTackle looks a lot like a combo. Well, that combo doesn't work anymore, so perhaps this is a place where a change could be made?

Also, my blitzer gets AG skills where yours get ST skills. I picked AG skills to symbolize them hunting like the jaguar (being jaguar "warriors".) Naturally, the great felines are deadly too, so ST skills wouldn't be incompatible with the jaguar aspect.

With skills such as JumpUp and DTackle, I think I'd recommend the AG angle. We've already gotten a doubles skill on the linemen, and the AG version would provide less ammunition for those who dislike doubles skills on roster players. (JumpUp is even an AG trait)

IMO, Jump(up) is the most leap related skill. If we are disassembling the combo, then I would prefer to keep jump up.

A hybrid player could look like this:
0-* Blizer 100K? 7338 Leap, Jump Up, (Block?), G,AG


This leaves the alligators.
Personally, I'd love to keep them, because they are featured in the little background material that we have.
Also, this could be a way of providing the team with ST skills, if these had been removed from the Blitzers.

On the other hand - they wouldn't have to be ST4, like they are in my version. They could be more along the lines of the blitzers, just as long as they are tough.

Perhaps this would fit into the hybrid team:
0-2 80K Lurking Alligators 5339 Leap, TSkull, G,ST

>0-1 Kroxigor 130,000
With the loss of the ST4 blockers, a big guy would be fine.

Finally, I'd like to keep the aspect of naming them after the 3 totems. Then again, they are BB players, so perhaps (again) a hybrid is a good way to go.
- So, what do we have:

**The New Slann Team**
0-12 Spawn 60K 6338 Leap, G
0-4 Eagle Catchers 80K? 7248 Leap, Catch G,AG
0-2 Jaguar Blizers 100K? 7338 Leap, Jump Up, (Block?), G,AG
0-2 Alligator Blockers 80K 5339 Leap, TSkull, G,ST
ReRolls 50K, Kroxigor Big Guy Ally, Apothecary, Wizard, (dagger secret weapon).
All Slann have +1 to intercept roll.

IMO, not a bad team.
Comments?

BTW - If you still want to discuss a hybrid hobgoblin team then we could give it another shot. I know I've been hard to rouse, but I'll be good this time

[Acerak]

**The New Slann Team**
0-12 Spawn 60K 6338 Leap, G
0-4 Eagle Catchers 80K? 7248 Leap, Catch G,AG
0-2 Jaguar Blizers 100K? 7338 Leap, Jump Up, (Block?), G,AG
0-2 Alligator Blockers 80K 5339 Leap, TSkull, G,ST
ReRolls 50K, Kroxigor Big Guy Ally, Apothecary, Wizard, (dagger secret weapon).
All Slann have +1 to intercept roll.

I like this, too. I don't think the Blockers are very worthwhile, though - they really don't add anything to the team - so I'd probably run with 0-4 Blitzers instead. And they definitely need Block.

So!

Code: Select all

0-12  Lineman    60K   6 3 3 8   Leap                   General only
0-4   Catcher    90K   7 2 4 8   Leap, Catch            General, Agility
0-4   Blitzer   100K   7 3 3 8   Leap, Block, Jump Up   General, Strength

I think I got that right. I'd go with ST rather than AG on the Blitzer because really, who needs all that AG?

-Chet

[GalakStarscraper]

Martin,

I'm not stubborn ... its just I can never really get you to actually debate the + and - of one of your teams vs mine. I really did want to do that Hobgoblin article with you but like you said it got stalled out on our differences.

Okay let me respond and you are going to think I'm being stubborn, but really really I'm not and I DO like some of your ideas.

Okay with both agree on the +1 to intercept that is straight from the books. The reason I put VVL on the players is that I've been told to avoid "special" rules like the plague to be taken seriously so giving them all VVL takes care of this little problem.

Okay Lineman at 6/3/3/8 with Leap, VVL - 60k Gen only we can agree with ... in order to really be a Slann team you gotta have Leap on the Lineman. I don't have any problems with using the WFB names either so Spawn in fine ... although I would REALLY like to point out that the BBRC has mentioned at one point about getting rid of special names to simplify the game ... ie Blitzer instead of Dragon Warrior etc.

The Eagle Catcher .... okay the reason for the AV 7 is straight out of the 2nd edition manual as they had -1 AV, +1 AG, and Catch .. if the WFB stats behind the Slann reinforce an AV 8 ... this is a comprimise I could make ... I think this ups the power level of the team BUT could easily compromise on this note ... (especially since after several play tests ... catchers are the last position I buy anyway for the team). HOWEVER, given them AV 8 gives the team just too much in the way of 100k position players (as the Catcher would cost 100k at that point) ... so in order to keep the team balanced an AV 8 Catcher would need to not have any skill other than Leap and VVL. The note to make here is that no current OFFICIAL BB2k1 has more than 450k worth of players over 100k in price. Its a ceiling that I highly respect and don't believe should ever be gone over.

Now the one where you are going to think I'm being stubborn ... the 2nd edition team had no Blockers .... in fact the quote from the rule book is "Slann may never be Blockers, Throwers, or Kickers". So for this reason mainly, I'm against the whole idea of the Blocker position. I converted a slew of WFB Slann figs for my BB team at home and even the toughest of them looks pretty scrawny, so I just cannot get behind the Thick Skull/AV 9 .... that said.

The Blitzers. The more this team is played the more I'm seeing a very LOW amount of Strength skills being used by the Blitzers, soooo I'm in full agreement that the Blitzers should be Gen/AG. As for the DT and Jump Up not working together ..... fully and completely disagree. The Blitzer is an incredibly great player on this squad (ask my opponents in the league). If I use DT on a player with BB2k1, then their turn is most likely over and even though I'm prone its like I never used the skill in the 1st place. It also is very handy to leap into a cage ... if he falls down so be it, but if they don't manage to move the cage the next turn ... its a free hit for the blitzer. No trust me DT and Jump Up really really go well together in BB2k1 ... in fact the change to DT by BB2k1 actually made the combo better. As for justification, the Slann Blitzers in 2nd edition had Heroic Leap which was a VERY abusive skill ... the DT, Jump Up combo is a not nearly as strong replacement for this skill even though it is a combo. Also Diving Tackle and Diving Catch are the two closest skills to Heroic Leap as a translation ... Jump Up gives the team some muscle.

Okay all this said hear would be my choices if the team was made official:

**The Slann Team**
0-12 Spawn 60K 6338 Leap G
0-4 Eagle Catchers 80K 7248 Leap G,AG
0-4 Jaguar Blizers 100K 7338 Leap, Jump Up, Diving Tackle G,AG
ReRolls 50K, Kroxigor Big Guy Ally, Apothecary, Wizard, (dagger secret weapon).
All Slann have +1 to intercept roll.

OR

**The Slann Team**
0-12 Spawn 60K 6338 Leap G
0-4 Eagle Catchers 80K 7247 Leap,Catch G,AG
0-4 Jaguar Blizers 100K 7338 Leap, Jump Up, Diving Tackle G,AG
ReRolls 50K, Kroxigor Big Guy Ally, Apothecary, Wizard, (dagger secret weapon).
All Slann have +1 to intercept roll.
(sorry this team is my team with a G/AG Blitzer and name changes, but I've tried to explain my position).

I don't know if you'll find this response as me not giving any ground or not ... I tried and if I wasn't budging I tried to explain fully why I didn't ... let me know your thoughts.


Just as a footnote, I'm including the 2nd edition Slann team for others to be able to ponder translating the team to BB2k1:

2nd edition Slann team had:

Lineman: the Lineman had the same stats as a Human Lineman but had a -1 penalty to Passing the football ... in addition the Slann Lineman has Leap and Intercept (Very Long Legs) .... so I ignore the -1 Passing penalty and made sure the team had no Throwers and translated the Lineman as 6/3/3/8 Leap, VVL 60k Gen skills

Blitzers: the blitzer had the same base stats/skills as a Slann Lineman but had one extra point of Sprint movement ... rather than make this a skill since Sprint movement in 2nd edition was different than it is now ... I added +1 to the MA. In addition, the Blitzers had the skill, Heroic Leap which allow a Blitzer to "Leap" 3 squares if the 3rd square would land him in the endzone for a touchdown. This was a powerful skill ... the best BB2k1 matches are Diving Catch and Diving Tackle ... given the position type was blitzer I used Diving Tackle ... Jump Up I admit was a fudged in extra to make the player better ... but like I said Heroic Leap was a heck of a skill.
So translated I got: 7/3/3/8 Diving Tackle, Jump Up, Leap, VVL 100k and I'll freely admit here that Martin is right that Gen/AG is a better skill set based on the race ... in fact I'll be changing the team to reflect this on my website.

Finally the catcher, the Catcher had Blitzer stats with -1 ST, +1 AG, +1 to Catching, -1 AV and no Heroic Leap ... translating this directly for each change you'll get:
7/2/4/7 Leap, Catch, VVL 80k Gen/AG

Since there were only 2 position players, made each one 0-4 for slots and viola ... 2nd edition Slann translated to BB2k1.

There is my knowledge dump on the translation and what I've seen from having played the team for a while. If I'm dragging my heels, I can explain more, but if you approach the team based on basic team building guildlines and the feel for the 2nd edition team this is what I get.

Galak

[GalakStarscraper]

I will agree that in 1st edition (see page 1 of this thread) the Slann were Orc level tough (AV 9 on the lineman and AV 10 on the Blocker). So I do understand the WFB argument for AV 8 on the catcher.

Like I said I could handle a 7/2/4/8 Catcher on the team if he didn't have the Catch skill.

Galak

[Acerak]

Of those two teams you posted, Tom, I'd use the second one put up the Catcher's MA to 8. He'd look different than the Blitzer.

-Chet

[plasmoid]

Hi Tom,
Don't worry, I don't find you particularly stubborn. I'm the same way. Once a team has been constructed and playtested, and the things that don't work have been rooted out, then I'm rarely interested in making changes.
Besides, you can't make changes every time 1 person thinks so!

But - bring on the hobgobs. It's actually the one of our 5 homemade teams that I like the least, so we might be able to work something out.

1) VLL vs. special rules
Right, special rules should be avoided. My point is that with VLL on the roster, you still have to add a line of "special rules" (i.e. non-roster info) explaining the Slann MA. So both have 1 line of non-roster text.
Not using VLL will make the players (look) less skill-heavy.
Also - Slann don't have _that_ long legs.
Still - it's all cosmetics.

2) Linemen/Spawn:
We can agree on those.
>although I would REALLY like to point out that the BBRC has mentioned at one point about >getting rid of special names to simplify the game.
How sad (IMO).

3) Eagle Catchers:
>okay the reason for the AV 7 is straight out of the 2nd edition manual as they had -1 AV,
>+1 AG, and Catch.
Note that if you translate that literally, then human catchers would have AG4 too.

But you'd accept AV8. Neat

>The note to make here is that no current OFFICIAL BB2k1 has more than 450k worth of players
>over 100k in price. Its a ceiling that I highly respect and don't believe should ever be
>gone over.

Darkies are at: 620K with 2 witches and 4 blitzers.
I find this particular criterium a bit arbitrary.
I usually go with "max11" - i.e. what is the value of the 11 best players that the team can field. Most teams are between 850K-900K, with the 3 elf teams at 930, 990 and 1010(!)

I think that the catchers should keep their catch skill.
With ST2 and no dodge I think that 90K is a fair price.

4) Alligator Blockers:
>quote from the rule book is "Slann may never be Blockers, Throwers, or Kickers". So for
>this reason mainly, I'm against the whole idea of the Blocker position.

Thats an OK reason. Mind you - norse couldn't get catchers back then, and they can now, so a change in line-up has occurred before.
IMO, the warhammer background shouldn't be ignored. The 3 totems fit 3 positions like a glove. Also, being the weaker of the position players (in the ST3 version), they could compensate for the power of the blitzers and catchers.

>I converted a slew of WFB Slann figs for my BB team at home and even the toughest of them
>looks pretty scrawny, so I just cannot get behind the Thick Skull/AV 9.
I've got some bulkier ones (not photohraphed yet).
Besides, if Phil ever makes the "Frog Man" (i.e. Slann) team, he'll make 4 models, so you've got spawn, catchers, blitzers and blockers, looking any which way you like

About the stats, take a T4 (i.e. AV9) creature and stick it in an alligator hide, and you should have something pretty tough.
I've made a (poor) conversion of an alligator blocker. I'll link to it as soon as I can borrow a digicam.

With AG gone from the blitzers, a little ST will come in handy.

5) Blitzers
>I'm in full agreement that the Blitzers should be Gen/AG.
Excellent.

>As for the DT and Jump Up not working together ..... fully and completely disagree.
I'm sure they work fine. What I meant was that the blitzer was _designed_ with a different combo in mind.

I for one disagree with your "translation" of heroic leap. IMO, Diving tackle (or diving catch) don't resemble it at all.
Heroic leap allowed you to ignore TZs and leap over standing players on a 4+.
That sounds on awful lot like the new leap skill to me.

As Chet mentioned, as blizers they ought to have block, (I didn't say must have).
Your version is the only blitzer in the game without it.
Personally I'd swap block with DT, and let them pick up DT on a skill.
I might knock MA back to 6, to balance out the improved catchers. (I know that in 2nd they had MA4+3, but I think they can stand the tweaking.)

6) Finished team:
Both teams you posted were with just 2 blitzers. A Cut&Paste error?

Anyway - heres my version.
You probably won't use it. I probably won't either.
But IMO, it's a good compromise, and makes for a good and balanced new team.

BTW - _if_ the team was to have 0-2 blockers, which position would you rather have 0-4 of?
The catchers or the blitzers?

**The Slann Team**
0-12 Spawn 60K 6338 Leap G
0-4 Eagle Catchers 90K 7248 Leap, Catch G,AG
0-2 Jaguar Blizers 110K 6338 Leap, Block, Jump Up G,AG
0-2 Alligator Blockers 80K 5339 Leap, Skull G,ST
ReRolls 50K, Kroxigor Big Guy Ally?, Apothecary, Wizard, (dagger secret weapon).
All Slann have +1 to intercept roll.

Calculating Max11 on this bunch hints that adding the big guy would be overkill.
(It would put them at 990K - a shared second place!)
With no Big Guy they are at 920K.
(Hey, with no big guy, the ST skills from the blockers suddenly become more interesting)

[Lucien Swift]

i'm still not comfortable with the blocker... with a 3 strength and 5 move, they seem to be neither a "blocker" nor a particularly slann-llike player... and they aren't a translation from the 2e team at all, which i think gets to me the most... i'd much rather see a 4 blitzer, no-blocker team... they'd be pretty formidable, but not without their flaws...

...speaking of flaws, if you wanted to give them a "downside" i'd say just take away the krox option and don't let them have any allies.... sure, in the wfb fluff they use lizzies as their do-boys, but in the more important bb fluff, they are too arrogant to mix their roster up...

with no big guys, those 4 high-potential blitzers and 4 good receivers don't seem so frightening....

either way, they taste like chicken....

[plasmoid]

OOps,
with MA knocked back to 6, the blitzers should have been 100K.

[GalakStarscraper]

Guess this is where I depart from Martin and Chet.

See I think putting Block on the blitzers is just entirely too much of the same old, same old, for roster development ... yawn ... really, serious yawn.

The 4 Blitzers with Diving Tackle and Jump Up have really gave this team some fun tactically options ... that getting rid of either skill to give them Block just doesn't yield.

As for Heroic Leap not translating ... okay Martin this is a concept thing. Heroic Leap was this all or nothing 3 square leap in a all out attempt to score. The skill could VERY easily have been called Diving Touchdown. So that said in concept both Diving Tackle and Diving Catch are in the same vein ... all out attempts with a diving leap to either catch the ball or nail an opponent. So again I stand by using Diving Tackle for Heroic Leap. Look the frogs are jumpers ... every player should have leap and diving tackle is much more in the spirit of the team than block.

I basically think this team should have a feel more like an Amazon team. ST 3 players with Leap and so other leaping type skills .... if you look at the team ALL the skills are jumping type skills ... Diving Tackle, Jump Up, Very Long Legs, Leap, and Catch all in concept have a move and jump to do something ... one of the reason this is my favorite team is it has a solid theme behind them, is balanced, and offer an entirely new way to play the game. This is why I don't like Block, Thick Skull, etc. just doesn't seem to fit the team I envision. So far my Slann team is doing well in the MBBL2 ... one victory and leading in their current match.

Anyway, this is all theory discussion anyway. The Slann are long gone from WFB so they won't ever be official anyway. The CJ/BBM is not really interested currently in any articles on new team concepts, so its not even in that category. So I could agree with some modifications to the team but I will keep falling back to 0-4 catchers and 0-4 blitzers as the position players.

Galak

[plasmoid]

Hi Tom,
don't take it the wrong way - it's just suggestions

While I do believe that (new) leap is the perfect translation of both heroic leap and (old) leap, that doesn't mean that I don't "get" diving tackle on the blitzers.
It's neat, and leapy - why not?
I could yield on the blitzers easy.

I also "get" that the slann are jumpers, and this is largely what makes them special.
But - I don't think that 1 other skill would compromize the design.

So, we can agree on almost everything.
But not the blockers.
I know that you've based the team on your vision of the Slann, but IMO, that vision is missing an important please. (Not an insult!)
IMO, if the blockers MA was pushed to 6, then with their leap skill they would resemble the other slann nicely, but with some durability and ST skills.

Not unbalanced, and not compromizing the design. IMO - ofcourse

But this is the end of the discussion I guess, and as you say, the old Slann will probably never become official.
I've posted my background for them on the Piling On thread in the BBRC 2K1 board. You might find it enjoyable, or you might find it silly

Regards
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
I recently launched my hybrid version of Galaks Slann team and my old Slann team in my league.

Most of the changes were very popular - not least because quite a few coaches felt that the old team was too weak.

However, the loss of their ST4 blockers was not well recieved.
2 comments were made:
1) Sticking a big guy on a team that needs "something" is such a bland solution. Kroxigors are for lizardmen - not Slann.
2) The teams special feature was that it combined ST4 on AG4 players on the same team (even if this feature has been made somewhat less interesting by the addition of big guys to many teams). This was said by all 4 coaches that have ever coached the team in my league.

With that feedback - this is my final version of the Slann team:

**Slann Team**
0-12 60K Spawn 6338 Leap - G
0-2 100K Jaguar Blitzer 6338 Leap, Block, JumpUp G,AG
0-4 80K Eagle Catchers 7248 Leap, Catch G,AG
0-2 100K Alligator Blockers 4438 Leap, ThickSkull G,ST
ReRolls: 60K.
All Slann have +1 to intercept.

Martin