Kicking

[Joemanji]

So what would you like to see different from my original post Ian? An away roll of AG +2 rather than flat 2+?

I'm not convinced there is any need to punish low AG teams on this, since the key stat for taking advantage of a kick is MA.

What do you think about not being able to move then kick?

Cheers
Joe

[DoubleSkulls]

I thought the proposal was a straight 4+ roll or fumbled, no modifiers for anything, AG or TZ. Not actually having to have possession of the ball is a nice extra.

[bouf]

So, my suggestions:

kick action (roll a d6; "away"-roll):
always succeeds on 4+ (not modified by tacklezones; and player does not have to hold the ball in his hands; entering a square with the ball on the ground is enough)
always fumbles on 1-3

use throw-in template (may be placed diagonally), randomly determine direction (d6: 1-2 left, 3-4 straight ahead, 5-6 right) and distance (2d6 + kicker's ST); ball always scatter 3 times and bounces.

turnover unless caught by a player of the moving team.
May be intercepted like a pass.

(adaption of skills:
kick-off - return: may be used like passblock may be used for passes;
kick: player may reroll either away-roll or distance roll
very long legs: player may add +1 to the away-roll)


That should add more ball movement to the game which is a good thing IMHO.
And it will spread players more over the pitch as it's not enough to simply place 3 tacklezones around the ball (less crouching and crowding of players...)

I agree that adding Ball movement is good but a 1-3=fumble is too risky... Then add total lack of control over direction (Throw in template) and no control over distance (2d6 +ST)... THEN add to that an intercept chance...? I just don't see people using this option unless desperate.

Kicking a Lose ball is interesting but I see Blood Bowl ending up like soccer. Two teams kicking the ball all over =

~//~

Dropkicks as originally posted (with some modifications) is more attractive in my opinion. I'd limit the distance somehow so you don't step on HMP too much.

I'd Make a dropkick
1) Pass/Dropkick action required (must start with ball or pick it up during the action)
2) 2+ to avoid fumble (affected by TZs)
3) Select any square in Long Bomb Range (maybe add a minimum range? "Select a square within Long pass and Long Bomb range")
4) Kick-Off return may move as Pass Block
5) Intercepts allowed (not allowed if minimum range is used)
6) Scatter Same as kick-off (affected by kick skill)
7) Turn Over unless caught by moving team.
Action over for kicking player as per Pass action

If added to the game it would then:
a) Increase Ball movement
b) Increase the usability of Kick, Kick-Off return and Diving Catch
c) Lessen the "Crowd" dominance.

If the board opened up, then we would see players getting a wider range of skills as they try to fill Specalist Positions/Roles on a team.

[Joemanji]

I thought the proposal was a straight 4+ roll or fumbled, no modifiers for anything, AG or TZ. Not actually having to have possession of the ball is a nice extra.

Hmm, something to think about, though it is seriously counter-intuitive. Kicking a ball from the ground (without a tee) or from hands are seriously different. One grubs along the ground, one sails high in the air.

I had thought of kicking as an option for people who had already gain possession of the ball. The pickup or catch was considered part of the difficulty or penalty of the kick. I.e. you get to move the ball a long way but in order to do so you must give up possession. If you don't have possession to start with a kick seems a bit ... well, wrong. As bouf says, it seems a bit too tempting just to lump the ball from one end of the pitch to another without having to risk the pickup.

[Joemanji]

I agree that adding Ball movement is good but a 1-3=fumble is too risky... Then add total lack of control over direction (Throw in template) and no control over distance (2d6 +ST)... THEN add to that an intercept chance...? I just don't see people using this option unless desperate.

Indeed, it is very similar to Chet's rules and has all the same problems. If I had time I'd do a diagram of potential landing positions from each kick. In my head that is a convincing argument for the kickoff style action.

If the board opened up, then we would see players getting a wider range of skills as they try to fill Specalist Positions/Roles on a team.

Yep. I really think just the potential of a kick would open up the game and have all sorts of postive knock on effects.

[prisma]

Okay, I think there are different ideas about what role kicking should have in the game...

It's clear that there are already three "default" ways to move the ball:
- run down the pitch with it
- hand it off
- pass it

And there are also two "unusual" ways of moving the ball:
- the ball-carrying thrown stunty player
- hailmary
Both use a game mechanic different from regular passes.

To me kicking should be among the latter, not among the "default" ways of moving the ball. It should add something new.

IMHO there are already enough possibilites to move the ball based on AG. If kicking is not AG-based, then it's interesting.
And there are already enough possibilities to move the ball where opponents' tacklezones factor in. Again, if they don't factor in when you're kicking, then kicking is interesting.
If you had to pick it up first, then AG and tacklezones would factor in. If they don't factor in, that is exactly what makes the "kick" action interesting and add something new and useful to the game - new options not already covered by passing and running the ball down the pitch etc.

Nevertheless the kick action should remain something rare and special. I wouldn't want it to have too much of an impact to the game (rather a slight add-on than a "game-changer").

Some seem to find it too easy...

I had thought of kicking as an option for people who had already gain possession of the ball. ... it seems a bit too tempting just to lump the ball from one end of the pitch to another without having to risk the pickup.

...and some too risky:

I agree that adding Ball movement is good but a 1-3=fumble is too risky... Then add total lack of control over direction (Throw in template) and no control over distance (2d6 +ST)... THEN add to that an intercept chance...? I just don't see people using this option unless desperate.

I think kicking should be a desperate action. If all else (picking up the ball, passing it to a teammate) is too likely to fail, then, just then, kick it away - and hope it goes more or less in the direction you want it.

The high risk (always a turnover, 4+ to kick it away, fumble on 1-3) and the hardly predictable square it lands in should balance the possibility to kick it without picking it up first and the meaninglessness of tacklezones.

But thinking it through, you're right regarding the distance. The player should have some (nevertheless only a little) control regarding the distance of the kick, otherwise it's too likely to end out of bounds and be thrown back in by the crowd. See further down below what I'd suggest.

i'd suggest a new skill to allow you to either re-roll or adjust the direction roll. The throw in template is just too random.

Agree; but instead of a new skill I'd let "kick" do that.

I like that more too, however I'd say the ball can be placed anywhere on the pitch and then scatters like a kick off & bounces (so its exactly like the kick off!)
...
Always a turnover (even if caught!)

Thinking about it, the automatic turnover should be a good rule (no pass + handoff + kick + following run towards the endzone in one turn).
But I don't like the "place anywhere like a kick-off"-idea; IMHO that's to similar to hailmary. It makes hailmary somewhat redundant (sure, less chance to fumble, less scatter, but nevertheless very similar).

So your posts lead me to the following suggestion:

kick action
When entering a square where the ball lies in or when carrying the ball in his hands, a player may kick the ball:

a) roll a d6 to see wether the player succeeds to kick the ball away. He always succeeds on 4+ and always fumbles on a 3 or less. This roll ("away"-roll) is not modified by tacklezones or weather.

b) If the ball is successfully kicked away, the kicking player's coach places the throw-in template in whatever direction he chooses (it may be placed diagonally) and determines the direction of the kick.
(d6: 1-2 left, 3-4 straight ahead, 5-6 right)

c) Determine the distance: the player's coach names a number between 0 and the player's ST and then adds 2d6: move the ball that many squares in the direction.
Opponent players between the ball's starting and landing square may try to "block the kick" following the normal rules for interceptions except that a successful attempt does not lead to the kickblocking player holding the ball but in a bounce from the kickblocking player's square (there's far more force in a kick than in a pass).

d) Scatter tthe ball three times. Catch or bounce as normal.

e) A kick action always ends the player's movement and the team's turn (turnover), even if the ball is caught by a player from the moving team.

changes to skills:
kick-off - return: may be used to try to block a kick like passblock may be used to try to intercept passes;
kick: player may reroll either away-roll or the direction - roll
very long legs: player may add +1 to the away-roll)

[Aliboon]

It seems to me that there are two types of kicks-

1) the "up and under" where the ball is kicked from the hand. For this I'd go for an AG +2 roll to go anywhere on the pitch, modified by TZs, but cannot be intercepted. Roll for scatter like the kick off, modified by kick as per the kick off. Stunties could only kick as far as the range ruler.

2) kicking the ball from the ground, no need to pick up, and the ball would follow prisma's rules as above, although I'd probably only -1 for the "block the kick" INT attempt.

I would see (1) as a clearance punt, useful for reasonably agile players who need to clear the ball, but are unlikely to manage even an inaccurate long pass/long bomb. It is like HMP, but obviously a lot less accurate (and to be honest how many times do you really see HMP anyway?).

I can only really see option (2) being used by low AG players, or when the ball is in a ruck and the player wants to hoof it away.

[Joemanji]

kick action
When entering a square where the ball lies in or when carrying the ball in his hands, a player may kick the ball:

a) roll a d6 to see wether the player succeeds to kick the ball away. He always succeeds on 4+ and always fumbles on a 3 or less. This roll ("away"-roll) is not modified by tacklezones or weather.

b) If the ball is successfully kicked away, the kicking player's coach places the throw-in template in whatever direction he chooses (it may be placed diagonally) and determines the direction of the kick.
(d6: 1-2 left, 3-4 straight ahead, 5-6 right)

c) Determine the distance: the player's coach names a number between 0 and the player's ST and then adds 2d6: move the ball that many squares in the direction.
Opponent players between the ball's starting and landing square may try to "block the kick" following the normal rules for interceptions except that a successful attempt does not lead to the kickblocking player holding the ball but in a bounce from the kickblocking player's square (there's far more force in a kick than in a pass).

d) Scatter tthe ball three times. Catch or bounce as normal.

e) A kick action always ends the player's movement and the team's turn (turnover), even if the ball is caught by a player from the moving team.

changes to skills:
kick-off - return: may be used to try to block a kick like passblock may be used to try to intercept passes;
kick: player may reroll either away-roll or the direction - roll
very long legs: player may add +1 to the away-roll)

These are remarkably similar to Chet's rules, as such my objections are the same ... long, overcomplicated and less descriptive. Again, a player can already put the ball anywhere he wants on a 50% success / 50% fumble rato. It's called a long bomb. Your kick is just a weaker version of that, except that you can do it without having to pickup the ball. That just makes it a tool for Saurus and Trolls to boot the ball away from their own endzone. Who was complaining that they didn't like the separation of agility and kicking? Your rules also have the counter intuitive effect of making kick actions possible only if you are near the middle of the pitch. Otherwise you have a 33% chance of kicking the ball into touch on top of your 50% chance of fumbling.

Why would you add this page-long set of rules for that?

[DesTroy]

OK, I've been reading this thread and I have a suggestion. Remember the acronym K-I-S-S? It stands for KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID. The best way to have kicking rules incorporated into the game is to make them simple enough for any team to use.

Thus, I tend to agree with Joe's arguments in this thread. Simply allow any player to kick (after all, any player can try to throw the ball, yes? Not just Throwers). Place the ball anywhere on the pitch a-la kickoffs. Roll 1d6: on a 1 the kick is fumbled, on a 2+ the kick is successful. Tackle Zones on the kicker impose -1 per player on the roll. Pass Block skill does not apply, but Kick-Off Return does. Scatter the ball from the target square in the same way as a kickoff; if the ball goes out of bounds, the fans throw it in as normal. Kicking the ball is an automatic turnover regardless if anyone comes up with the ball. A Pass or Hand-Off action may not be used on the same turn as a kick; a player may run with the ball before kicking.

I may allow coaches in my league to experiment with this idea during one-off games in the off-season, just to see if it's practical. Personally, I feel that any game of football that doesn't allow kicking is misnamed, not to mention missing something essential. Thus, Nuffle Amorical Football needs a simple mechanic for kicking during a drive.

[Jural]

I too favor the initial rule. I would make a slight change (see below) so that a 1 and a 2 fumble, not just a 1. Otherwise, sounds good to me.

A kick should be doable by any player holding the ball if he declares a kick action. He designates a target square. The kicker then rolls a kick roll. A kick roll succeeds on a 4+, and always gets a +1 modifier (like dodging, catching, etc.) Tackle Zones, Disturbing Presence, and Nerves of Steel function just like a Pass action. If the player fails his kicking roll, the ball fumbles. If the player succeeds, scatter the ball like a kick-off (randomly determine direction, 1d6 squares.)

Turnovers, out of bounds, and fumbles are handled just like they are right now- so if the ball ends up in your player's hand without touching the ground, there is no turnover.

Skills allowed: Kick-Off Return shouldn't function, Kick should allow for re-rolling the kick roll, Pass Block should also work for kicks (but kicks can not be intercepted.)

I also wouldn't mind if a new skill existed which allowed you to re-roll kick results, and kick just halved the scatter distance, as it does on normal kick-offs now.

Good work, I think it adds to the game without being unweildy. I also highly disagree it encroaches on Hail Mary Pass, although the Hail Mary Pass skill would become much weaker than it currently is- as any player could do 50% of the same function without even having a skill!

[Joemanji]

I too favor the initial rule. I would make a slight change (see below) so that a 1 and a 2 fumble, not just a 1. Otherwise, sounds good to me.

A kick should be doable by any player holding the ball if he declares a kick action. He designates a target square. The kicker then rolls a kick roll. A kick roll succeeds on a 4+, and always gets a +1 modifier (like dodging, catching, etc.) Tackle Zones, Disturbing Presence, and Nerves of Steel function just like a Pass action. If the player fails his kicking roll, the ball fumbles. If the player succeeds, scatter the ball like a kick-off (randomly determine direction, 1d6 squares.)

Yeah, I considered that, but I couldn't see how to do it without breaking Jervis' "no roll on a flat 3+" rule. What you posted above is still a fudge of that. Maybe 2+, -1 modifier if the player has moved that turn? I'm also not convinced that a kick would be too good on a 2+ - a lot can still go wrong. Something for playtesting I guess.

Turnovers, out of bounds, and fumbles are handled just like they are right now- so if the ball ends up in your player's hand without touching the ground, there is no turnover.

Ooh yeah, that might be an important FAQ-saving clarification.

Skills allowed: Kick-Off Return shouldn't function, Kick should allow for re-rolling the kick roll, Pass Block should also work for kicks (but kicks can not be intercepted.)

Seems people are split on either Pass Block or Kickoff Return. I'm not fussed either way, though I do agree one of them should work. Maybe both? Pass Block can only be used to get next to the kicker anyway. Perhaps KOR could be used if the player neither starts, moves through or ends in a TZ? Just speculation.

I also wouldn't mind if a new skill existed which allowed you to re-roll kick results, and kick just halved the scatter distance, as it does on normal kick-offs now.

Would it re-roll everything together? Or just the direction? Or just the scatter distance? Or either independently?

[Joemanji]

Stunties could only kick as far as the range ruler.

Ah yes, Stunties. It would probably be easier to just carry over the -1 penalty they have for passing to kicking.

[DoubleSkulls]

I wouldn't worry about the no "3+ rule" since this is pure house rules territory anyway.

[DoubleSkulls]

if the ball ends up in your player's hand without touching the ground, there is no turnover.

What rules are you playing? There is nothing about touching the ground in the rules.

[MadLordAnarchy]

if the ball ends up in your player's hand without touching the ground, there is no turnover.

What rules are you playing? There is nothing about touching the ground in the rules.

Jural - you're obviously playing a good set of rules there as I do the same.