Blood Lust (...or, Stop For a Bite)

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:54 pm

Oi Jervis, NOOOO! Just because you invented one of the best games ever doesn't give you the right to add rules handing out free Blitzes to players with ST4 as a (wait for it) 'penalty'!

Seriously I think all my objections to this rule have been voiced more than adequately above but having just read it in the mag I felt the need to vent.

No disrespect but by his own admission the coach playing Andy Hall was not the most experienced BB player and to me the Vamp team seems to require a different approach to normal.

This does not seem to be the fairest way to playtest the team, and I may be cynical but to print this rule seems to be an attempt to sidestep the BBRC and introduce a new rule instead of the current experimental one.

Xtreme · Post by **Xtreme** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:37 pm

mrcoffee182 wrote:I think COFAB is the best option still. I don't see a problem with that at all.

Competly agree. This thing they call a nega-trait isn't negative at all. Hell I would like to get that trait on some of my other players

Darkson's Spare login · Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:50 pm

Nazgit wrote:This is what I have a problem with, personally. Vamps should not be that bad, full stop. There is no point introducing any more "joke" teams, especially not when the new minis are so gorgeous. At the end of the day, if the team sucks, people won't want to use the team, the minis won't sell, and GW will decide that BB isn't worth supporting. I played a gobln team for 2-3years, I am fed up with pissing about with loosers!

Stuff the "vampires are terrible" angle. I want a playable Vampire team! The negative trait is necessary on the vampire team IMO to make sure they aren't better than the standard teams, not to sure that they are worse.

This quote is direct from Andy in the Mag:-

Andy Hall wrote:The goal with the Vampires has always been to place them below the balanced teams like Orcs, Humans and Elves etc, but above Halfling and Goblin teams.

So they're clearly supposed to be bad.
I just can't see how they can think giving a team upto 6 ST4 blitzes, plus your normal blitz is going to help balance the team

I'm sticking with COFAB.

And those saying that COFAb is to harsh for team building, my MBBL vamps have a full 16 man squad after 10 (or 11) games, and I've retired 3 player. In fact, the only thing letting the side down (apart from the coach

), is the number of RR's they have, which is my next thing to buy.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:58 pm

Vamps should be a challenge to play. COFAB makes it more challenging the more vamps you buy (the way it should be). I guess Andy and JJ didn't like the idea of attacking your own thralls when fail COFAB, but that's what thralls are supposed to be for, servents of the vamps and occasionally a snack.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:06 pm

Blood Lust is obviously not even remotely an option.

Darkson wrote:And those saying that COFAb is to harsh for team building, my MBBL vamps have a full 16 man squad after 10 (or 11) games, and I've retired 3 player. In fact, the only thing letting the side down (apart from the coach ), is the number of RR's they have, which is my next thing to buy.

I don't mind negative traits which end up costing you the game. I do mind those, such as COFAB, which can quite easily put you in a position where you have to retire a team. One bad game is all it takes, when you do more than average damage to yourself, and your opponent also inflicts an above average number of injuries and bye-bye team.

I must admit that Andy Hall's reasoning for dropping COFAB is all out of whack. Again, I say that am not convinced. I hope that I soon will be, cos I like COFAB in principle quite a lot.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:18 pm

In that case, you just don't field the vamps, or only move those that are necessary.

And come on, if I can get a 50% record with them, they can't be that bad

Xtreme · Post by **Xtreme** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:21 pm

With COFAB they aren't that bad just very chalenging. I thought that was the goal. The worst thing you could do to a newbie is make them coach a team like the vamps. If this article is any indication of the kind of coaching they have in the BBB then no wonder they thought the Vamps suck.

Circular_Logic · Post by **Circular_Logic** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:16 pm

Nazgit wrote: I don't mind negative traits which end up costing you the game. I do mind those, such as COFAB, which can quite easily put you in a position where you have to retire a team. One bad game is all it takes, when you do more than average damage to yourself, and your opponent also inflicts an above average number of injuries and bye-bye team.

Then we have to give woodies AV9 or decrease their cost´s to 50k or give them at least regenarate. Just because it only takes one bad game to cripple the entire team to a point of no return, not only at the start, but also later in teamdevelopment.
You have 6 very good players, which don´t take tooo much punishment (AV8/ST4/easy blodge-access and have regen). The rest of the team just costs 40k. So I guess the woodies risk alot more on the pitch with every game.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:32 pm

Circular_Logic wrote:You have 6 very good players, which don´t take tooo much punishment (AV8/ST4/easy blodge-access and have regen). The rest of the team just costs 40k. So I guess the woodies risk alot more on the pitch with every game.

Well, for a start the woodies don't kill their own players!

Plus WE have 2 starting blodgers. Whereas a vamp needs minimum 31 SPP to get to blodge status, assuming Pro as a first skill. Both linemen have AV 7, but WE have AG 4 so they can dodge away from danger alot easier. WE keep themselves alive by staying away from trouble and scoring regularly - by not getting bogged down. Vamps do not have the speed for passing plays (even with high AG), so they gonna have to run the ball sometimes. They are gonna get hurt, even before they start killing themselves.

At the moment, the more of your best players you include, the worse the team gets! Circular logic indeed....

mrcoffee182 · Post by **mrcoffee182** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:51 pm

I still don't see the problem, you have a downside (OFAB) and a plus side(the 6/4/4/8 access to st/ag Vamps).

There's some extra thinking needed to coach them and a bit of team management needed (personally I like 2-3 vamps and no more), but overall I think they are fun to play and not too destructive if you play them right.

My vamp team is up to 15 players after about 7 or 8 games, and that include me having to replace a dead vamp! And on top of that my win/loss record is fairly decent... which isn't too common for me!

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 1:13 pm

Blood Lust is so bad I'm posting my first post in months just to say how much I don't like it.

From reading the match report it sounds like Pete couldn't get the hang of dealing with OFAB so they changed it for the second half. You need to get the hang of these things, it's the skill of the game.

Blood Lust, on the other hand will go from being a minor inconvenience to a powerful advantage once people get the hang of it. Remember minotaur teams with the old WA rules anyone?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 1:19 pm

Marcus wrote: Remember minotaur teams with the old WA rules anyone?

MARCUS ... you are still alive ... cool.

And yes, I remember the old WA rules ... too bad Andy doesn't. In days when Big Guys could use rerolls, I remember coaches rerolls successful WA rolls in an attempt to get a 1 for the extra blitz move (just like Cerebus thought of trying with Pro on the Vamps).

Galak

Tnouge Teid Trog · Post by **Tnouge Teid Trog** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 7:48 am

I'd just like to say COFAB is great and that it wouldn't bother me one bit if it was offical.

Personally I'd like to see a small change to make it just slightly less potent. Why not make it so an injurie must be made that players turn or he suffers an injurie. Seems like it's too simple a salution, but I think it would work. The vampire has a few options: Blitz (using the teams blitz action),Block, or Foul hoping for a casualty: maul one of his own thralls (or possible another vamp, but that would be a bad idea anyway); or he could take one for the team and take a different action knowing he'll recieve an injurie from the thirst.

Evolve To Anarchism · Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:51 pm

A few points:
1) FUMBBL data is highly skewed. Most teams get their games based on STR not TR. Vamps' STR is usually significantly below their TR. So, when looking at that data keep this in mind.
2) Having a weakness that makes you much more likely to need to retire your team is IMHO a bad idea.
3) In my experience vamps do okay in open leagues where you can choose your opponents. If designed well, (low # of vamps and high RRs) they can be competitive but they tend to develop more slowly then other teams. Not a problem in open leagues but a problem in scheduled play.

My suggestion: Keep the present experimental OFAB but with a small fluffy tweak. Instead of rolling for an injury roll make it an automatic KO. Vampires don't want to kill their blood supply. So it only makes sense that they know when to stop sucking their blood, they stop when they knock them out. This solves issue #2. It may be a bit more harsh not having those stuns but in the long run you'll hopefully have to retire less teams. The vampires may still but at least you won't have vampires destroying their own teamates.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 11:40 pm

The team killing off their own teammates is half the fun.

Also on a balance note ... Vampires are really tough once they start getting skills. The chance of killing off a Thrall with skills is a balancing component of the team ... see Rotters with apoth for their ball handlers for this same method of balancing done in a different way.

The Rotters and the Vampire team have much in common. Reduce the current risk to the stock players of the team in either case and you will unbalance the team in my opinion.

Galak