On the dwarfen roster replace the ogre with?

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 11:56 am

Not many, but you only need a couple - one to stand on either end of the line. Then you can't just work your way down the line without risk of some 1 die blocks.

Lets say there are 7 long beards in a team. On average they'll take stand firm on 5/36 skill rolls. So on average their 2nd stand firm will take 14.4 skill increases.

It will take a while, say 30 games.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 12:02 pm

Zombie wrote:...they can face other teams' big guys without any fear.

I don't think everybody here agrees with you on this point.

I must admit that I have some specific bad luck when facing orcs

somehow, but apart from that, I definitely don't like and do fear facing a team with 4 Str4 players and a Big Guy, with my all-Str3 Dwarfs.

The Slayers may have Dauntless, but
a) that also makes them the main target of any opponent.
b) dauntless rolls fail more often than could normally be expected (OK this is not scientifically proven
c) dauntless doesn't help shit when you're getting kicked in the face by Ogre, and MB vs Av8 will often mean that you loose you're Slayers faster than the opponent looses hi Ogre
d) Frenzy makes blocking a Higher Str player a bit risky, because a Push Back means you'll have to block again, and often the second block has some assists against, since the ogre will often be found amidst a large mass of orcs.

I used Orcs in this example but of course the same goes for Chaos teams and other teams. (Except for my Orc-curse)

R

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 12:04 pm

Anyways, considering the overall opinion on this board, I'm taking a no-ogre Dwarf team to the ogre&orc-infested French Open, so very probably I will have some more to say on the topic of ogres and dwarfs by the end of that tournament...
I hope you guys are right; my rating with Dwarfs isn't too good already...

R

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 12:08 pm

ianwilliams wrote:Not many, but you only need a couple - one to stand on either end of the line. Then you can't just work your way down the line without risk of some 1 die blocks.

depends on how long the line is! A 3 Dwarf long line can still easily be knocked down on 2Dice blocks (admittedly all blocks must succeed), and 4 BO with any other orc can still do the same to 4 dwarfs! Add in the ogre and it will be even easier!

Besides, after 30 games there will be Guard BO available as well!

R

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 2:05 pm

Redfang sums pretty neatly why using the Slayers as an argument for removing the Ogre is hardly valid.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 3:51 pm

Redfang wrote:depends on how long the line is! A 3 Dwarf long line can still easily be knocked down on 2Dice blocks (admittedly all blocks must succeed), and 4 BO with any other orc can still do the same to 4 dwarfs! Add in the ogre and it will be even easier!

Fair point. I do believe the Dwarves ought to be compensated for the loss of the Ogre, 4 Blitzers ought to do it.

Not any more hitting power but it removes one of their major deficencies (only 4 AG3 players) and helps with the other (too slow).

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 3:54 pm

Mestari wrote:The fluff reason is silly too - Ogres are a mercenary race and they definitely do fit in with the dwarves.

See, fluff-wise Ogres might fit in with Dwarves but Dwarves don't fit in with Ogres. Fluff is a weak arguement.

No team needs Big Guys. They should all be relegated to history and fluff.

Before anyone says Stunties need them, Stunties arent' supposed to be competitive so they shouldn't have them either.

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 3:58 pm

Zombie wrote: You don't get it at all. I also neglected to mention that a lot more dwarf players start with block or tackle than orc players do. Catchers, agility skills and higher movement is irrelevant when discussing big guys. Dwarves don't need big guys because they can face other teams' big guys without any fear. I also forgot to mention that they're the only team in the game with a dauntless player. Another very good reason why they don't need a big guy at all.

You really just did the same thing you did before. For every strength you mention I can mention a weakness and a strength on a another team that has a choice in 2 big guys. I think you are the one who doesn't get it. Your method of proving your point lacks any evidence or substance. I asked you to prove your point with evidence before and I still don't see any.

Your blabber...

I also neglected to mention that a lot more dwarf players start with block or tackle than orc players do.

My blabber...

Dwarf passers are the only players with passing skill access who start without pass. Boo frickety hoo. Dwarf teams also lack the ability to use secret weapons effectively since MA and Ag are often important.
Orcs are a strength/bashing team that can score in one turn with a developed TTM strategy.

Wanna do it again? If so just list a strength that dwarfs have and I'll list a weakness for them and a strength for orcs...if you'd rather discuss big guy access then we can do that to.

Zombie wrote: Catchers, agility skills and higher movement is irrelevant when discussing big guys.

If so, then so are skills and the ST stat. It's all part of the same package. If strength, block and tackle are all that matters then why aren't the dwarfs tearing up the pitch? You have no evidence.
I'm sorry you find dwarves such a challenge but a lot of people don't.
Actually I'm inclined to say that the two team who need a big guy the least are Skaven and Orc. Now I could list a bunch of reasons why I think that but it's just my opinion, even if I try to disguise it as evidence.
Let's discuss some proof, not conjecture.

rwould · Post by **rwould** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:29 pm

Zombie, on a recent post where you listed each of the teams you rated Dwarves as 7/15 short term, and 9/15 medium and long term. For Orcs you rated them 3/15 short term, and the strongest team medium to long term. Yet here you seem to persist in believing that Dwarves are clearly stronger than Orcs and it is the Dwarves that need the removal of the big guy.

Can you please explain your rational behind this, other than a need to be contrary to an argument that has been presented?

Thanks

Richard

rwould · Post by **rwould** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:31 pm

Just for clarification the 15 represents the official teams, and the other number represents Zombies ranking of them, 1 being strongest. So 3/15 means the 3rd ranked team of 15.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 9:33 pm

Really Dark Lord (and rwould as well), you don't get it at all. This is not about naming strengths and weaknesses from other teams. I'm not saying that dwarves are better than other teams and therefore don't need ogres. I'm saying that dwarves can do enough bashing without an ogre, which means that they don't need an ogre, because all an ogre does is bash. If this still isn't clear to you, i don't know how to say it.

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 9:47 pm

Zombie wrote:Really Dark Lord (and rwould as well), you don't get it at all. This is not about naming strengths and weaknesses from other teams.

But that's all you did! Who are you and what planet are you from?

Zombie wrote:I'm not saying that dwarves are better than other teams and therefore don't need ogres. I'm saying that dwarves can do enough bashing without an ogre, which means that they don't need an ogre, because all an ogre does is bash.

And orcs can't bash well enough without an ogre? A team with 4 ST 4 players has less bashing power than a team with none? On the offensive side of the dice THE BASHING SIDE! Dwarves are ST 3. The troll slayers cannot equal an ogre for reasons previously mentioned.

I think rwould has you pegged. Mr. Contrary. Oh well, I see enough people agree with me that I can ignore your disputatiousness.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 10:05 pm

Yes, i believe that dwarves can bash more than orcs do. I'd take block over ST4 anytime, and block, tackle, thick skull, guard over ST4 + block.

Guard lets them do the job that the ogre would have done (only better and more consistently because dwarves don't have the big guy trait or the bonehead trait), and trollslayers help them manage the other team's big guy wihtout needing one themselves.

And no, i don't consider that the trollslayer argument has been disproven at all. AV8 only makes a difference when the big guy is hitting, and is easily compensated by taking piling on, while the ogre tries to get his hands on block. Mighty blow is nice, but frenzy is even better for taking people out. And last but not least, dwarves have two trollslayers, while they only have to face one big guy.

And if you really think that rwould's argument has any kind of validity, you still have no clue what it is i'm saying. So i'll have to repeat it again (and maybe eventually you'll understand) : i have never been talking about how good the team is.

Dark Lord (retired) · Mon Apr 28, 2003 10:20 pm

Ok fine and good.

How many dwarf teams have you coached?

I'm betting you haven't caoched any if you think filling up with gaurd is so easy. And like I said your argument is trasparent and you even started it off with "I think..."
You have no idea how to debate and I'm pretty sure rwould pegged you corrctly. s

So, you win. Good show.

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 10:30 pm

I think we have covered the fact that no team needs a big guy. So lets look at a few other points.

Why are there secret weapons?
Because they are funny.

Why are there big guys?
Because they are also funny.

Why are Big guys funny?
Because they are stupid and do dumb things, or don't show up when you need them.

Why do we play a game that is a rough parody of American football?
Because it is funny.

Why is it funny?
Imagining Orcs, little Dwarves, elves, and walking rats running round killing each other on a football field is funny. Imagining Big Ogres, Trolls, and Trees running around wreaking havoc amonst these smaller people as they try and move the ball is funnier.

Dwarves are also funny. Dwarves with Big guys are funnier.

Lets leave the dwarves alone they have enough problems being only 4 feet tall, and lets laugh at how funny the game can be, instead.

Asperon Thorn