Do you think the revised Nurgle's Rotters are balanced?

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:58 pm

imo any new team created should be, AT BEST, slightly less cool than the original teams. A team that, all else equal (coaching skill, luck, etc) would lose a little more than it won against any of the bb or dz squads (not counting the flings and gobs of course). In that light I'd say raise the cost of the CW's by 20k and the Beast of Nurgle by 20k.

They should be interesting and fun, but not powerful.

Whoever said the CW's were overpriced already wasn't properly valueing the fact that they have regen and foul appearance, not just 2 ordinary skills that Joe the human lineman could pick up with 16spp.

Dark Lord (retired) · Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:59 pm

Not only Regeneration, but ST 4 + AV 9 and Regeneration! How often will this guy actually get injured? Not much, he should be very expensive and they should not be able to raise them.

Maybe this team can be the new home for the zombies?

Anthony_TBBF · Post by **Anthony_TBBF** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 4:27 am

You are forgetting the AV8 Beastman that can't be healed, ever. I think that makes up for 4 or 5 players that can Regen and have good armour (and can't be relyed on to move the ball).

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 4:53 am

They don't really need to be relyed on to move the ball.

I don't like them team at all. Balanced or not.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:19 am

Darklord, you didn't give any reason yet. If you feel you don't like that team and you don't have any arguments, there's no need arguing.

Imho, the team is very balanced now on the lower end of all races(reasons above) and could be easily tweaked to the upper range of the races (100k Rotters or 0-6) by Fanatic.

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 8:09 am

wesleytj wrote:imo any new team created should be, AT BEST, slightly less cool than the original teams.

Whay that? Don't you want to give the game the chance to evolve? If you say that newer teams have always be weaker/less cool than we would not have the official teams we have today. Anyway, I take it as your personal opinion, but if you take the facts into account, you'll see that the reality is different:

New state Elfs: Weaker than any other Elf team? I'd guess no!
Khemri, Necro and Vampires: why these are replacing Undead? Are they weaker?

I know there are no official statements about that, but I bet that in 1-2 years we will have 4 different chaos teams (one for every god) which will replace the standard chaos roster. And for sure that will be much cooler than have the dull chaos roster we have now. I'm just trying to discuss here in order to get a Nurgle chaos team which is neither weak nor too strong.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 3:55 pm

narkotic wrote: Whay that? Don't you want to give the game the chance to evolve? If you say that newer teams have always be weaker/less cool than we would not have the official teams we have today. Anyway, I take it as your personal opinion, but if you take the facts into account, you'll see that the reality is different:

Yeah it's just an opinion. I just think we have enough good teams that are representative of the fantasy world. If we add more they can be good teams but not QUITE as good as the current official teams. I was ok with making good lizardmen and good amazons, but only because Lustria had been kinda ignored till then. It's also to try to avoid the standard GW curse where every new team/race/army/gang/whatever is better than the one before it. See the WHFB chaos army if you're confused about what I mean.

narkotic wrote:New state Elfs: Weaker than any other Elf team? I'd guess no!
Khemri, Necro and Vampires: why these are replacing Undead? Are they weaker?

Exactly my point. I don't want that. I don't want a guy in my store, who's played for several years with his well-painted skaven or high elves or chaos to suddenly find that some new kid with a new broken team is eating him for breakfast because he has 4 guys with regen and foul appearance on his TR100 team. I don't want the guy with a really nice undead team with some nice conversion work and stuff to find out his team is no longer legal. If that's your version of "evolution of the game" then no, I'm totally against it.

What I would like to see "evolve" is what the bbrc has been doing up to now, tweaking the existing rules, making effective clarifications, and basically continuing to support the game. The basic core of the game is perfect, the starting teams are pretty well balanced. All that's left to do is make tiny, almost unnoticable changes here and there.

narkotic wrote:I know there are no official statements about that, but I bet that in 1-2 years we will have 4 different chaos teams (one for every god) which will replace the standard chaos roster. And for sure that will be much cooler than have the dull chaos roster we have now. I'm just trying to discuss here in order to get a Nurgle chaos team which is neither weak nor too strong.

That's your opinion, and I hope it's completely wrong. I don't think BB needs a khorne team, or a tzeentch team, etc. And if they do create such garbage, I hope they don't kill the original chaos, who are currently balanced against other teams, and fun to play.

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:25 pm

Tim wrote:Darklord, you didn't give any reason yet. If you feel you don't like that team and you don't have any arguments, there's no need arguing.

Imho, the team is very balanced now on the lower end of all races(reasons above) and could be easily tweaked to the upper range of the races (100k Rotters or 0-6) by Fanatic.

Where are your reasons?
You gave just as much evidence as I did but you simply said, "I like it." in a more ambiguous way.

Where's the eveidence that it's balanced?

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 7:43 am

wesleytj wrote:I hope they don't kill the original chaos, who are currently balanced against other teams, and fun to play.

That's exactly I want for the Nurgle's, too. I don't think we're too much different in opinions. We both don't want an over the top nurgle team, you want it weaker than original chaos, I want it to be roughly the same playing strength.
I guess the real difference in opinion is that you perceive FA as a strong skill whereas I don't and argue that nurgle CW have been made too weak to compensate.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 2:51 pm

narkotic wrote:I guess the real difference in opinion is that you perceive FA as a strong skill whereas I don't and argue that nurgle CW have been made too weak to compensate.

Yes that would probably be it. Foul Appearance is a VERY nasty skill, especially in quantity. Having to face 1 guy with it is no big deal, but having to face 4, if they're used properly (or anywhere NEAR properly) they can shut down a passing game. The blocking thing is just bonus.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 7:09 am

narkotic wrote: Compared to Orcs which have much more variety than BOBs and an Ogre/Troll this team seems only to be competetive against Goblins and Flings now.

Which would be a good thing. I completely agree with wesleytj and everyone else who says that there should be no new teams which are definitely amongst the best teams of the game.

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 10:05 am

???
I seem having problems making myself clear.
I never wanted Nurgle's to become one ot the "top teams". Concerning Chaos teams, we all know they are at the lower end of teams and IMO this nurgle roster is even below that. I just wanted a competitive team, neither being a power team nor a constant loser.
But seeing all these replies, most of you think that the nurgles as in their annual 2003 state are "balanced" because they have to be weaker than any other teams (except Gobbos and Flings).
Message understood...

Cervidal · Post by **Cervidal** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 5:51 pm

narkotic wrote:???
I never wanted Nurgle's to become one ot the "top teams". Concerning Chaos teams, we all know they are at the lower end of teams and IMO this nurgle roster is even below that.

Crimeny... no, Chaos are not a lower end team. Initially, sure. They don't make very good tournament teams because of their general lack of skills. In a league setting, however, Chaos have little problem rising to the top thanks to their player versitility, their strength, and access to mutations.

I think it's your view of the original Chaos team that is feuling much of this debate, and I'm not convinced your opinion is a well informed one.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:51 pm

I actually suggested several of these changes to the Rotters, so let me add my $0.02.

The Rotters, as originally presented, were simply Chaos+. They had no disadvantages compared to normal Chaos unless you resented the 10k extra for the Rotters or felt that an Ogre was a better Big Guy than the Beast (unlikely.) They needed changes that would make them more Nurgle-tastic, if you will.

In 2nd Edition, there was a mutation called Obesity which granted you extra strength but limited your movement and sprint abilities. Nurgle characters are usually represented as being swollen and bloated. Hence the -1 MA. -1 AG came out of this as well.

But I didn't want the Rotters to be just a Black Orc. Definitely they needed Foul Appearance, but Nurgle's followers are also renowned for their supernatural toughness and resistance to plague -- that's why they can remain infected with all of Nurgle's diseases and yet not die. It seemed reasonable to allow them to have Regeneration to represent this innate Nurgleness.

Finally, with Regen on the four Rotters and a very nasty Beast (even toned down), it seemed like they would be too powerful. Foul Appearance on one character is nasty, but when you can potentially overlay 4 modifiers on every attempt to pass or catch the ball -- well, that's pretty potent. Furthermore, it made no sense from a fluff perspective to allow followers of the god of Disease and Decay to employ a doctor, of all things. Removal of the apothecary satisfies fluff, gives the team an achilles' heel, and matches the other teams who have Regenerative capabilities.

All in all, I don't consider the Nurgle's Rotters to be especially better or worse than the majority of teams that already exist. A fully developed Nurgle's Rotters team would be pretty nasty, but they'll always have problems getting there due to the vulnerable Beastmen. (Even Regen is less likely to save the Rotters from a kill than an Apothecary would, although infinitely better on non-kill injuries or a SECOND kill during the same game.)

0-6 Rotters is an interesting suggestion, but I think they need more testing before something like that should be considered. The Rotters team in my league was summarily executed after the third game.

Milo

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 6:02 pm

6 players with FA is a bit OTT if you ask me, specially as they can get them free if the beast kills someone :/