New skills: block and knock down

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 2:43 am

That's not true for all teams. My amazons, for example, have at least one increase per linewoman after 8 games. They have earned more levels on average than my throwers and blitzers, and almost as many as my catchers.

Besides, the point of dividing the skills is not only to create diversity among linemen. It's for all other positions as well. There are very few players in Blood Bowl who don't get block on one of their first two skills. Throwers and doubles are the only exception i think. That's Bore Bowl.

grimfang · Post by **grimfang** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 3:43 am

well.. i like the idea of seperate offensive/defensive blocks skills. Lets face it... in the NFL, a defensive lineman does not always work well as an offensive lineman... its a different approach. One is taking the hit, hoping he can knock his opponent over.. while the other is delivering a hit, hoping to move or knock down his opponent, while avioding falling on his ass. The two techniques, while similar, are actaully very different.

Khankill · Post by **Khankill** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 4:18 pm

I am not for splitting block. Although Zombies argument is good. Power gamers are power gamers; it doesn't matter what happens to the rules. Someone is going to see an opening in them and exploit it to a degree that it becomes the norm. I would have to agree with marcus that in the event of a split block, tackle would become a standard 1st or 2nd skill. This could also happen if it were changed to a strength skill. As tackle is an "anti-skill" and completely does away with the dodge skills ability. Maybe the fact that tackle exists is what keeps dodge in check. Any thoughts on creating an "anti-skill" for Block?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 4:20 pm

Block is the anti block skill, if you both have it then there is no effect.

Demandred · Post by **Demandred** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 3:07 am

In relation to splitting of block, I'd have to agree that this would just lead to more skill choices being used on those skills. Currently what is the problem? There are still two results on the dice that will knock a player over who has block and if you get assists/STR4+ then you have two dice to choose from. That works well when i play. Hell even my block dodge players get knocked over by the star result 50% of the time (really pissing me off

). But it enables your linemen to hold the line better and assist your play makers with there tackle zones much better. So changing it is going to frustrate many teams as they will have trouble holding a line and so will have to get all the block skills.

In relation to making block a strength skill (or maybe even a general trait) this sounds alright. But then many agility teams will have trouble getting block (doubles arent that easy). Then your runners or catchers have there dodge negated by tackle, need a double to have block and so many times will just get smashed anytime they enter the oppositions half.

The current balance already works. Most players can get block which self limits against itself. "Strength" teams can get tackle to negate "agility" teams dodge which allows them a good chance of stopping and even destroying the agility team. Then it is down to the tatics of the players in placing coverage tackle-zones etc.

So pretty much there isnt much reason to change it other than the desire to change it cause you can.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 6:36 am

The reason i want to change it is because having the same skill (block is the only skill that does this) on 14 out of 16 players (i.e. all but throwers) for every race (stunties notwithstanding) is plain boring. Diversity is more fun, and my proposal (or the one to make it a strength skill for that matter) promotes that extra diversity.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 3:08 pm

Making it a strength skill does also have a certain amount of appeal - and horrendously unpredictable consequences what comes to team balance. But that would certainly force most of the teams to redesign their skill-taking strategies alot.

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 10:47 pm

I would like to see what happens in a long term league where Block is a Strength skill. As Mestari says this could have far reaching implications for game balance.

IMO the most affected players will be linemen especially in Human/Orc teams as these players don't have access to ST skills like Blitzers do.

It probably wouldn't have as much effect as might first be thought as there would be less Block around generally, so an increase in both knocked down results and TO in developed leagues is what I would expect.

Also makes blitzers and players with Block more valuable in teams without access to the skill normally.

Demandred · Post by **Demandred** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:51 am

but making it a strength skill will result in alot of destroyed agility teams. This is maybe what you are after? As most of these teams cant get access to strength skills but for doubles or on one or two position players. So they dont get block that much (I personally dont roll that many doubles). This allows teams, in the extreme the dwarfs, with block and tackle to laugh as they destroy your team cause only a lucky few can have block whereas their whole team does.

Splitting might be worth a go (I would try it) but probably would be very frustrating (offensive block is blocked over, defensive blocker blocks and falls over). But hey this could make scoring really easy as hard for teams to not fall over resulting in TO.

But whats wrong with it currently. If you want other skills take them. if they cant then hack it on the line, why are you using them as a lineman? If the splitting occurs then the linemen are still going to heads towards that and your left with same problem. Linemen just dont advance enough for them to try and get these skills (and thats is because they need them to fulfull there main purpose of holding the line).

So by not splitting the skills you get more diversity as the linemen can choose to take block or other skills and once with block other skills are picked up (ie kick, tackle, shadowing, dirty player etc)

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:32 am

As we already use Block as strength skill I have to add y few points.

Sure the balance shifted a bit. Hitting teams and Agility teams are now farther apart. Are the teams in our league now unbalanced - I do not think so. It is almost as hard for an Dwarf/Chaos Team to develop an team into an passing team, as is for an Elf team now to build an brawling team. In the past (as we used the block skill as most of you do now) it was much easier for agility teams to counter the strength of say Dwarves or Norse and still having a superb scoring team.

Fortunately our rulechange did NOT destroy our agility teams (I play Woodelves). Although I admit that you have to adapt your strategy to that situation.

Personally I like the fact that not every Catcher gets the block-dodge combination asap (when possible it's a no-brainer for every coach).

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:49 am

Another idea would be splitting them AND placing them both in the strength category. It would give strength teams an advantage in some way, but it would also hurt them as spending 2 skills on block would mean mighty blow and guard are farther off. And agility teams will still be able to take defensive block on a double which will help them survive, but they'll be reduced in the hitting department (as it should be) by not having offensive block.

Or if that's still too harsh for you, make defensive block a general skill so that elves can still get it, and offensive block a strength skill.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:12 am

I'm curious as to what making Block a strength skill would do to agility teams... except for amazons, since they should really be in the kitchen, cooking my meal

Under 3rd edition a (former) friend of mine coached a HElf team that had all players with block first, then either dodge or diving tackle (the OLD diving tackle). That team kicked asses big time no matter what they were up against. You could not even approach them...

I am all against splitting block into two skills. I know that, at least for Str teams like Chaos I would want to have both of them on most players, and that would mean it would take a very loonnng time before my team would get any other skills...

I think the rules on this point are balanced as is and shouldn't be changed just because there's to many players with block. If I were a rooky lineman getting knocked down by about every groin-high Dwarf I met, I would also learn how to block better ASAP.

R

Demandred · Post by **Demandred** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:45 am

Zombie I must say that the concept of offensive block as strength skill and defensive as general or both as strength is something I would try. This would cause the strength teams to take longer to get the full effectiveness, but allow the agility teams to be less disadvantaged.

I would first try the defensive block as general option first and maybe move to the other if balance isnt great.

Styrofoam King · Post by **Styrofoam King** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 5:28 pm

If Block (one skill) is made a strength, why not make a counter to it in General Skills? Agility teams with dodge already have a counter with tackle, so why not make a Block counter called Flatten or something?

juck101 · Post by **juck101** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 5:33 pm

Marcus wrote "If it's a no brainer - why take something different? If it's still so powerful - why not take both after splitting? I, for one, don't take it as the absolute first skill. "

ok true not complete 100% the law, but if it's so good block let alone dodge combo it must be too powerfull. If lots of people pick it every time then (playtesting proves) it must be an overpowered skill. It is always the best choice irrelevant of how developed league is. Not sure how to split it but my teams and league are an example of loving block, it is THE skill. Hard teams suck without it, dodging teams suck till they can defend it, even weird teams (halfling,gobo,ogre,vamp) all would go for it first. Looked at the threads and not sure my view because would change game mechanics but think it limits diversity.

Talk Fantasy Football

New skills: block and knock down

Further Balance