Kicking

JumpingElf · Post by **JumpingElf** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:02 pm

If you use it like "Hail Mary" you don't need a maximum range, IMO no one want the ball leave the field and thrown back by the fans ...

antipixi · Post by **antipixi** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:14 pm

I really like the idea that it scatters like the kick off and is affected in the same way by the kick skill.

Just these simple changes makes it significantly different from HMP. I think that it would add a whole new tactical slant to the game without too much disruption to currently effective tactics.

I also agree with previous posters that Kick Off Return is a more suitable counter skill than pass block. I would definitely be interested in trying this out.

JumpingElf · Post by **JumpingElf** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:48 pm

IMO there is only one option:

Handle it like an action - the player has to do an AG-Roll to kick the ball and use the Range Ruler in the same way like passing ( but the ball scatters the same way like at a Kick off) - everybody could do it!

... and your opponent may use one player with "Kick off Return" after the ball scatters ....

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:29 pm

JumpingElf wrote:IMO there is only one option:

Handle it like an action - the player has to do an AG-Roll to kick the ball and use the Range Ruler in the same way like passing ( but the ball scatters the same way like at a Kick off) - everybody could do it!

... and your opponent may use one player with "Kick off Return" after the ball scatters ....

Agreed, although again the roll to get a kick away should be a 2+ modified by tackle zones. The AG roll was the main flaw in Chet's rules, and makes the kick action a weaker version of a pass ... and hence utterly superfluous.

The point of the kick is that the risk comes after you get rid of the ball, not before. A long bomb has a 50% of fumbling and a 50% chance of landing within 1 square of where you aim it. A kick has a 16% chance of fumbling but a 16% chance of landing within 1 suqare of where you aim it.

JumpingElf · Post by **JumpingElf** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:13 pm

I don't think it should be a 2+ Roll, 'cause IMO a troll should't kick as good as Elves or Vampires (AG). You can modify a kick with +1 on the roll 'cause kicking a ball is much easier than throwing it.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:52 pm

A Troll is as good as an Elf at GFIs. Not every roll in BB is based on an AG roll. That is arguably as finesse related as hoofing the ball high up in the air and hoping it lands in the same half as you planned it to.

Plus, this is about a game mechanism. Sometimes that has to take precedence. There is no way a professional sportsman would fail to pick up the ball from the ground 1 time in 3 for example.

JumpingElf · Post by **JumpingElf** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:19 am

Joemanji wrote:A Troll is as good as an Elf at GFIs. Not every roll in BB is based on an AG roll. That is arguably as finesse related as hoofing the ball high up in the air and hoping it lands in the same half as you planned it to.

OK ... but running is still not the same as handling a ball

. If you use it as an action, you have to make a roll and a ball handling action is based IMO on agility in this game.

antipixi · Post by **antipixi** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:07 am

If the test was an AG roll with a +2 modifier (like Jump Up when blocking) then it would only be the very inept who were really effected. I agree with jumping elf that this is an agility based action.

This roll would still of course be modified by TZs as well.

prisma · Post by **prisma** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:00 am

Well, I disagree with some you.

If the kick-action depends on AG and tacklezones, then I see no use for it; we already have the pass action for that.

I'd like "kick" to be independent of AG and tacklezones (like gfi's) - any player has the same chance to desperately punt away the ball, no matter how many opponents around him (or the ball).
Still, that should be the last action of the team (a turnover should follow).

So, my suggestions:

kick action (roll a d6; "away"-roll):
always succeeds on 4+ (not modified by tacklezones; and player does not have to hold the ball in his hands; entering a square with the ball on the ground is enough)
always fumbles on 1-3

use throw-in template (may be placed diagonally), randomly determine direction (d6: 1-2 left, 3-4 straight ahead, 5-6 right) and distance (2d6 + kicker's ST); ball always scatter 3 times and bounces.

turnover unless caught by a player of the moving team.
May be intercepted like a pass.

(adaption of skills:
kick-off - return: may be used like passblock may be used for passes;
kick: player may reroll either away-roll or distance roll
very long legs: player may add +1 to the away-roll)

That should add more ball movement to the game which is a good thing IMHO.
And it will spread players more over the pitch as it's not enough to simply place 3 tacklezones around the ball (less crouching and crowding of players...)

MadLordAnarchy · Post by **MadLordAnarchy** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:40 am

Yay, someone who pretty much agrees with me as that's exactly my line of thinking.

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:49 am

i'd suggest a new skill to allow you to either re-roll or adjust the direction roll. The throw in template is just too random.

JumpingElf · Post by **JumpingElf** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:03 am

If you use the modifiction antipixi suggested a Human Lineman kicks without any opponents in his TZ a Long Bomb on 4+

(most of the other players too ... AG 3!). IMO TZs have to modify the Roll, 'cause most of the actions will be modified (Movement not ... I know

), but all ballhandling things like Throw and Catch ... so why not Kicking!
The only way not to get any mods from other TZs while throwing or catching is ... tata ... Nerves of Steel (that why they made this skill

). IMO you can use it for Kicking too.

antipixi · Post by **antipixi** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:46 pm

JumpingElf wrote:If you use the modifiction antipixi suggested a Human Lineman kicks without any opponents in his TZ a Long Bomb on 4+ (most of the other players too ... AG 3!). IMO TZs have to modify the Roll, 'cause most of the actions will be modified (Movement not ... I know ), but all ballhandling things like Throw and Catch ... so why not Kicking!
The only way not to get any mods from other TZs while throwing or catching is ... tata ... Nerves of Steel (that why they made this skill ). IMO you can use it for Kicking too.

I may be misreading this, but my suggestion would mean that a human lineman in no TZs would kick the ball anywhere on the pitch on a 2+! (AG3 needing a 4+ with a bonus of +2 on the roll making 2+)

I think that TZs should modify the roll because of the pressure/chance of blocking the kick.

I don't like the throw in template version as it restricts the possible landing positions of the ball. Positioning it anywhere on the pitch and then scattering as per kick off gives the inaccuracy to make it more desperate than a throw, especially if kicking is an automatic TO.

This thread is becoming a bit of a split in opinions. But hey that's what discussion is for anyway!

JumpingElf · Post by **JumpingElf** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:59 pm

antipixi wrote:
JumpingElf wrote:If you use the modifiction antipixi suggested a Human Lineman kicks without any opponents in his TZ a Long Bomb on 4+ (most of the other players too ... AG 3!). IMO TZs have to modify the Roll, 'cause most of the actions will be modified (Movement not ... I know ), but all ballhandling things like Throw and Catch ... so why not Kicking!
The only way not to get any mods from other TZs while throwing or catching is ... tata ... Nerves of Steel (that why they made this skill ). IMO you can use it for Kicking too.
I may be misreading this, but my suggestion would mean that a human lineman in no TZs would kick the ball anywhere on the pitch on a 2+! (AG3 needing a 4+ with a bonus of +2 on the roll making 2+)

IMO that's too easy (anywhere on the pitch) - with a mod of +2 the player can kick normal distance with 2+ and Long bomb with 4+. This sounds playable to me ...

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:13 am

prisma wrote:Well, I disagree with some you.

If the kick-action depends on AG and tacklezones, then I see no use for it; we already have the pass action for that.

I'd like "kick" to be independent of AG and tacklezones (like gfi's) - any player has the same chance to desperately punt away the ball, no matter how many opponents around him (or the ball).
Still, that should be the last action of the team (a turnover should follow).

So, my suggestions:

kick action (roll a d6; "away"-roll):
always succeeds on 4+ (not modified by tacklezones; and player does not have to hold the ball in his hands; entering a square with the ball on the ground is enough)
always fumbles on 1-3

use throw-in template (may be placed diagonally), randomly determine direction (d6: 1-2 left, 3-4 straight ahead, 5-6 right) and distance (2d6 + kicker's ST); ball always scatter 3 times and bounces.

turnover unless caught by a player of the moving team.
May be intercepted like a pass.

(adaption of skills:
kick-off - return: may be used like passblock may be used for passes;
kick: player may reroll either away-roll or distance roll
very long legs: player may add +1 to the away-roll)

That should add more ball movement to the game which is a good thing IMHO.
And it will spread players more over the pitch as it's not enough to simply place 3 tacklezones around the ball (less crouching and crowding of players...)

I like that more too, however I'd say the ball can be placed anywhere on the pitch and then scatters like a kick off & bounces (so its exactly like the kick off!)

Kick skill & KOR return work exactly like they do on kick off.

In the event of the ball being placed out of bounds then it gets thrown in just like a pass would.

Always a turnover (even if caught!)