Expert BB-moved from vault

[Mirascael]

How about splitting ST into AT (attacking ST) and DF (defending ST). I think a blitzer (for example) with AT 4 and DF 3 (or even 2) fits the concept of a 'blitzer' better.

A more elegant way of representing this is a single stat with two components. So players could have a ST stat of the form 4(3), where the first number is their attacking ST, and the number in brackets their defensive ST.

Personally, whilst I am intrigued by an "expert" version of BB, with seperated passing and AG stats, and maybe 2D6 scales, this would still be on a relatively conservative level. For example, there have been calls to split MV, ST and AG into disperate components. That is a jump from four stats to seven! That is a level of change which would be near impossible to balance using any intuitive experience of basic BB.

Yeah, more stats wouldn't add too much to the game, apart from clunkiness.

For the sake of reference, I'll list the comparitive probabilities for AG rolls of the current D6 and possible 2D6 scales (assuming that the 2D6 scale does not have the +1 feature of the current 2D6 scale.):

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 AG    D6      2D6
 1    33.3%    -
 2    50.0%    2.8%
 3    66.7%    8.3%
 4    83.3%    16.7%
 5    83.3%    27.8%
 6     -       41.7%
 7     -       58.3%
 8     -       72.2%
 9     -       83.3%
10     -       91.7%

As you can see, the biggest issue with a 2D6 scale is that there is no close correspondence between the current AG3 and an AG in the 2D6 scale. So any such change would require a reworking of the game from the ground up, primarily in terms of player costs.

I'd disagree that this would be such an issue:

- AG 3 would become AG 7

- AG 4 would become AG 8

- Catchers and Throwers would get +1 on their AG

It always seemed quite peculiar to me that highly specialized elves wouldn't be better at dodging/catching etc. than a mere human lineman with AG 4, who'd even outclass the catchers and throwers within his own team by just one stat increase. Also strange that Skaven Throwers are kind of crappy in comparison to Gutter Runners with regard to ball handling. A 2D6 system would make far more sense without making the game more complicated. Hell, even that stupid interception before fumble rule could finally be abandoned by that.

Besides, throwing 2 dice feels better, throwing just 1 dice is just wrong.

[gken1]

Hey guys shouldn't you just move this to new concepts?

doubt you want to be associated with the: vault or Toby

[Pink Horror]

It's an homage to Toby. It's a discussion about what we'd try to force on the Blood Bowl playing community if we only had his stupidity.

As far as dice go, I like systems that have different styles of rolls for different kinds of actions (like, I don't know, Blood Bowl). For example, you have to pass, so you roll a die for every point of throwing power (whatever stats and skills would make that up, I haven't decided), and the range dictates the success roll. Then you get roll all the successes trying to beat a number based on your accuracy stat with modifiers for vision or something. Every extra success makes it easier to catch. I tend to think a game is more fun when there is a different procedure for working out each action, when compared to games that seem to have all d12 or d20 rolls.

Don't forget that this game, which would of course be a fantasy football game wholly separate from Blood Bowl, would also have plenty of cards, plenty of injuries, and a more detailed league system. Many skills will add new actions. Players would be able to attempt to do things that would normally be impossible for them (Why should only guys with Diving Catch have a chance to make a diving catch?). After all, just changing the dice won't necessarily make anything more fun.

[Joemanji]

Thanks Azurus for the table! Looks like D12 is the perfect step up, as it has results perfectly analagous with the D6, but with a set of "halfway" probs inbetween. Should have been obvious really, I suppose.

[Mordredd]

Dark Lord doesn't do math...I don't believe in the superiority of math.

Ah, the anti-Zombie! That guy wouldn't do anything if math didn't tell him to do it first.

DL, if you want to alternate player actions between teams you might consider the Epic Armageddon system of moving pieces, or a limited group around a leader piece, and retaining initiative.

[Azurus]

Hey guys shouldn't you just move this to new concepts?

doubt you want to be associated with the: vault or Toby

What? You mean we're not on topic anymore? Damn!

[Azurus]

As far as dice go, I like systems that have different styles of rolls for different kinds of actions (like, I don't know, Blood Bowl). For example, you have to pass, so you roll a die for every point of throwing power (whatever stats and skills would make that up, I haven't decided), and the range dictates the success roll. Then you get roll all the successes trying to beat a number based on your accuracy stat with modifiers for vision or something. Every extra success makes it easier to catch.

Let me see if I'm understanding this right.

So, for example we have a player with 'pass' 4 who needs, say, a 5+ to make the throw.

So we roll 4 dice, and the throw is accurate if any of the dice hit 5+. Then the catcher gets +1 to catch for each additional 5+?

Something like that?

Interesting, and reminds me of another game, though I can't remember what...

EDIT: Ooops, sorry for the double-post

[Vero]

I like the idea

Going with d12 stats for orc, human and wood elves would be:

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Human
Lino      6388
Blitzer   7388
Thrower   6398
Catcher   8397

Orc (imo, orcs just aren't as agile as humans)
Lino      5379 
Blitzer   6389
Thrower   5388
Blocker   4469

Wood Elves
Lino      73107
Wardancer 83107
Thrower   73117
Catcher   93117

Really much like the one point of agility between standard humans and elves, adds much to the game.

Was also thinking about +1 str for blockers while blocking and +1 str for blitzers when blitzing but that would seriously hit the balance

[Darkson]

Think the ST stat should be based on a D12 as well (although you don't roll a D12 for ST). ST4 (or 5?) would be the standard baseline, so a human catcher would be ST3, a 'Fling would be ST2, A BOB ST6 and a Ogre ST 7 or 8.

(Note, all values of the top of my head.)

[Dark Lord (retired)]

Well one thing I notice about those values right away was that they look like too similar.

I mean PH is right and it's what I was saying before. I don't want to just change the dice we use. I'd liek to develop a whole new system.

So the elves now have AG 10 out of 12? That's really not any different than what we have now. If the rules of the game still worked the same way they will still be the same team.

We need to decide how many stats we want.

IMO we need to represent all of these seperately:

1. Raw Physical Power
2. Passing Skill
3. Catching Skill
4. Leadership Ability
5. Blocking Skill
6. Movement
7. Armor Rating
8. Heart (this stat could be used for several things but foremost in mind is Going For It.)


And as long as we're expanding the range of the stats I think this would be a good time to explore the possiblity of "rolling" the players stats.
Woudn't need to be rolling dice necessarily but could be done with a point system.
And using a point system would go a long way for team balance. Simply set the starting points ranges for the races and positions and let people customize.

[Azurus]

Well one thing I notice about those values right away was that they look like too similar.

I mean PH is right and it's what I was saying before. I don't want to just change the dice we use. I'd liek to develop a whole new system.

So the elves now have AG 10 out of 12? That's really not any different than what we have now. If the rules of the game still worked the same way they will still be the same team.

I'd agree with this, I think d12 is a bad option because it has the same levels as the d6, just stretched. (Which was what Naz said he liked about it). That why I'm for one of the 2dx (8 or possibly 12 for preference) rolls, you get a different distribution that way, and each successive increase in a stat over 'average' is less important.

And I don't think the balance of the teams should be kept the same. It'd be better to create a 'new' kind of balance from scratch, after there is some idea where the rules themselves are at. In other words, team balance is something to worry about (much) later. And there's really no reason an orc should have to be just a human with -1MA and +1AV, after all.

We need to decide how many stats we want.

IMO we need to represent all of these seperately:

1. Raw Physical Power
2. Passing Skill
3. Catching Skill
4. Leadership Ability
5. Blocking Skill
6. Movement
7. Armor Rating
8. Heart (this stat could be used for several things but foremost in mind is Going For It.)

I'm wondering where dodging fits in this. It might be a good idea to base it off movement in some way. (Fast movement seems pretty essential for dodging)

I think Leadership is one of those things that 'might be needed if we can think of something to need it for'. I'm assuming DL already has some ideas for that, something to do with determing the flow of play perhaps.

I'm still interested in a 'defensive ST', but that could easily be worked from DL's 'raw power', while 'blocking' skill is offensive.

Anyway, dodges are the only think that doesn't immedietly seem to 'fit' somewhere in those stats, but otherwise I'd be happy with those.

And as long as we're expanding the range of the stats I think this would be a good time to explore the possiblity of "rolling" the players stats.
Woudn't need to be rolling dice necessarily but could be done with a point system.
And using a point system would go a long way for team balance. Simply set the starting points ranges for the races and positions and let people customize.

I think rolling stats for roster players is a little dodgy (might work for freebooters though). Some kind of points system could work though. Would it have to (at least partially) replace positionals?

[gken1]

if the vault wanted a new version of bB.. this is what they shoulda done...

[Taffsadar]

I like the 2D8 system. The difference between "Ag"9 (56,3% chance to succede) and "Ag"10 (67,2%) is perfect to differentiate normal humanoids (humans and skaven) from bashy humanoids (Chaos Warriors, bretonnian knights and orcs) while the agile players (Elves and gutte runners) could have "Ag"11 (76,6%) and the positional elves could have "Ag" 12 (84,4% chance).

[Munkey]

Interesting to see no ones come up with any major changes to Blocking yet. If starting from scratch I think one of the weaknesses of 3rd edition (and variants) is that being stronger gives a big leg up in blocking power and that the Blocking effect skills (Block and Dodge) are often too powerful.

It would be nice to have a system where Catchers could be less strong than other players without having to have their chances of being taken down increased as massively for it. The downside would be having to abandon a nice and fairly straightforward blocking system and probably the dice we all like so much.

[Vero]

The differences between 2d8 system and d12 system isn't that great. D12 has some advantages though: it's only one die, there's no need to add up figures all the time and it got one more result, the 50%.

Code: Select all

Some ag,
2d8  | d12
23.4%| 25%  
32.8%| 33.3%
43.8%| 41.7%
     | 50% 
56.3%| 58.3%
67.2%| 66.6%
76.6%| 75%
84.4%| 83.3%
90.6%| 91.7%