Should Brettonians be in Bloodbowl?

[plasmoid]

Hi DDogwood,
thanks for commenting

Team 1

I think a 6/3/3/7 Lineman with Fend should cost more like 60k

It's a 6336 lineman. And while it is a good skill - I agree - I do not think it is better than block or dodge, which is the skill that norse/amazon get on 6337 players for 50K.

I also think that Pro is too powerful a starting skill for any roster.

I find that surprising.
There was just a thread on TBB about which players it would be worth taking pro on.
The reply was pretty much nobody.
It's a skill that very rarely gets taken, which is why I'd like to see it on a starting roster.

Team 2

0-6 Knights/Blitzers won't work if there are more than 2 positions on the team.

I think that depends exclusively on the quality of said players.
8 positionals is not in itself an unusual thing.
And I don't see this team comparing impressively to the normal human roster.

I know this is not exactly science. But it is always worth totalling the cost of the teams best 11 players. I.e. "on pitch power". Most teams come in around 900K.
This team would be at 840K.

Also, 0-6 players with Stand Firm is over the top,

Had it been the old stand firm, I might be inclined to agree.
But nerfed stand firm is not a great skill.
I just posted data here from a pretty big league.
AFAIK, 130 players had taken mighty blow. 5 had taken stand firm.

and I still think that GAS access on any player without a nega-skill is over the top.

Fair enough.
To me, that would depend on the total make-up of the team.

Team 3

These Blitzers are too powerful. They are comparable to the Necromantic Werewolf, but they get twice as many, and the rest of the team is quite a bit better than the Necro team.

Yeah. They're probably pretty comparable to 2 weres and 2 golems.
I just don't see the rest of the team being better than the rest of the necro team.
I'd figure them on par with necros. Probably.

Bottom line

Fair enough, but my take is that all three of these teams are pretty overpowered.

Duly noted.
It'll be interesting to see what others say.

Again - thanks for the thorough comments
Cheers
Martin

[Jural]

...
The knight is fine, but can you drop one of the skills or add in a more "Special" one? Juggernaut and Dauntless is plenty fluffy...
I think juggernaut is special. It certainly isn't mega popular skill choice.

I like Juggernaut and Dauntless both. But Juggernaut and Block are too similar to be on a starting player, in my mind. Dauntless and Juggernaut would be fine, as would Block and Dauntless, although I prefer the Juggy version. Basically, the piece is equally described (in my mind) with only one of the skills. More is overkill (in my mind, again.)

Also, they aren't don't need to be blitzers, they are knights, or royals, or whatever.

Do me a favor, if you don't mind. Give me your take on a roster with 0-6 knights.
Will do. 3 rosters coming:

Bretonnians 1
The one I posted on page 13, tweaked slightly after Jurals comments:
0-16 Lineman 6 3 3 6 Fend 40k G - (alternatives: 5337 or 6327)
0-2 Runner 7 3 3 7 Sure hands 60k GP
0-2 Blocker 5 3 3 8 Wrestle, Grab 70k GS
0-4 Noble 7 3 3 8 Block, Dauntless, Juggernaut* 110k GA

(*I still think pro would make them flashier. Anyone else than Joemanju Dislike pro?)

Pro simply doesn't work in my mind with Block. Pro will make them MUCH better, re-rolling pushes, etc. I do think the skill is typically worse than other choices like Block, Guard, and Mighty Blow, but as this is the 3rd skill on a starting player (who already has block), it needs to be considered as such.

Bretonnians 2
On a 6 noble roster, I'd make the yeomen the ball getters.
0-16 Lineman 6 3 3 6 Fend 40k G - (alternatives: 5337 or 6327)
0-2 Yeoman 7 3 3 7 Sure hands 60k GP
0-6 Blitzer 7 3 3 8 Block, Stand Firm 100k GAS
I think with their power based on just 6 players, they'd need the A-skill access to be viable. Mind you, a block of 6 of those could be hard to handle. The team would have a lot for slowing down an offense. And I like stand firm for being an underused skill.

I don't have a problem with GAS in principle. But GAS and starting with Block (and Sure Hands on the roster) is probably too much. So is a team full of Fend and Stand Firm. Just too difficult for the opponent out of the box. Only Nurgle comes close to being this frustrating... and they have some drawbacks.

Bretonnians 3
I still prefer the idea of 4 nobles and their personal yeomen. I.e. a 4+4 line-up.
In this scenario, I'd make the Yeomen the players that clear the way for the nobles, so blockers rather than ball-getters.
0-16 Lineman 6 3 3 6 Fend 40k G - (alternatives: 5337 or 6327)
0-4 Yeoman 5 3 3 8 Wrestle, Grab 70k GS
0-4 Blitzer 8 3 3 8 Block, Dauntless 110k GS (A?)

I like this team for being run and bashy, but (IMO) without the power to really play 2-1 grind. If I'm the only one who can stomach 8338, then 7338 with sprint could work too. I just think that a bashy team that is neither strong nor tough really needs something special to be playable.

That is a darn fast team. And with all 8 positionals starting with Block or Wrestle, they are pretty darn developed, being rivaled only by Dwarves and Norse. I really think this team would be good. Fend counteracts AV 6 partially, and once there are 5 guarders on the pitch, this team will be a nightmare- quick and heavy hitting.

[Marlow]

I'm 100% with Ddogwood here:
The knights have massive egos. Who gets all the glory? Who gets talked about when the game is over? Who gets all the ladies?
The guy who scored the winning touchdown!

I agree, the Knights would want it all. Personally, I am not sure BB needs any more teams but I like the idea of a team with Yeoman and Knights.

As for the proposals I would not be keen on another team with 40k Linemen especially with Wrestle on starting players as I can see the Dirty Players lining up to start kicking high value players who have been wrestled to the ground.

While I really like the idea of a Knight with GAS access since no-one on the Norse or Amazon team was allowed it unless they has some sort of negative. Maybe Animosity so they would not pass to non-Knights?

I would see the Peasents (linemen) as AV 7, Yeomen at AV 8 (they are allowed some leather) and then the Knights with slower movement at AV9 & Catch (they trained to score TD's)

Bretonnians
0-16 Peasents 6 3 3 7 Fend 50k G
0-2 Yeoman 5 3 3 8 Wrestle, Sure Hands 70k GP
0-6 Knights 6 3 3 9 Block, Catch, Dauntless 110k GS
[/quote]

[plasmoid]

Hi Jural and Marlow - thanks for your feedback.
I must start by saying that I'm getting flashbacks to lots of past team discussions. In my experience you can't post a new team, no matter how puny, without someone posting that it is broken.
Please, I don't mean this as an insult. It's just that most analysis' og new teams tend to focus heavily on the good, and completely ignore the bad. Which is kind of the feeling I'm getting here.

Even so....
Team 1

But Juggernaut and Block are too similar to be on a starting player, in my mind.

I really find them to be very different skills. Block does a heck of a lot more than juggy. Juggy is just a blitz bonus. Like horns - only not as useful.
Ah well. I just can't see them without block.

but as this is the 3rd skill on a starting player (who already has block), it needs to be considered as such.

Hmmm.... But even on players starting with block, it isn't even a regular 5th pick.
It's a neat skill, but hardly a power skill.
Still, I see your point. But you have no conceptual problems with pro as a starting skill?
Leaving them with just block+pro would get rid of your dislike of bloggernaut

Team 1s best 11 would come in at 820K, btw.

Team 2

Only Nurgle comes close to being this frustrating... and they have some drawbacks.

I should think these guys have serious drawbacks too.
A bashy team without any ST above 3, including no big guy.
Good speed, but without the catcher types who can make a dash for the endzone.
And an average AV just above 7! On a bashy team. Yikes! (IMO).

But GAS and starting with Block (and Sure Hands on the roster) is probably too much. So is a team full of Fend and Stand Firm.

I like their fend and stand firm. It's not like they have much else to brag about.
"Hold the line" is a cool gimmick. IMO.
GAS will mean nothing in their early games. But later on, when being a bashy team without real bash-resilience starts to hurt, their A skills could mean that at least the knights will be there to play 2nd half....

Team 3

And with all 8 positionals starting with Block or Wrestle, they are pretty darn developed, being rivaled only by Dwarves and Norse.

In that particular department.. Yes.
But lack of toughness and/or high ST should give them problems.
Their speed does make them shine, but IMO without it they'll get stomped by the 2-1 grind, and will be unable to do one themselves.
It's not the same team, but I don't see them outshining necro or chaos dwarfs..

Sigh.
It's not like we could discuss our way out of this.
And I'm guessing 3 test games are not gonna happen.

So - which one did you like best. Fluffwize?
Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Oh, hey Marlow, better reply to yopur post.
As I said to Jural - their is a fair bit of way between a tactic and a broken game element. I don't think that a few wrestler and cheap linemen is going to turn into excessive power by foul attrition. If that were the case, we would have seen it in LRB5 with or without this team.

As for MA6 AV9 knights, that's not impossible. I'm not thrilled about it, because it's such an orcish AV, but I know you're not alone.

Funny and interesting that you should bring up a knight starting with catch. The past several versions of my Bretonnian team has catch on the Blitzers/knights! I think it makes 'em exactly the ball hogs they should be.
But others just look at catch and go "... why?"

Ah, the pain of trying to merge the conventional and the overly imaginative...
Cheers
Martin

[Jural]

Well, I haven't fallen in love with any of these rosters just yet, but there is something there. If it helps, here is what I LIKE about your rosters.

*By the way, I think Pro is OK on starting players in principle. I'm not sure it fits the knight, but I think it's OK.

Bretonnians 1

0-16 Lineman 6 3 3 6 Fend 40k G - (alternatives: 5337 or 6327)
0-2 Runner 7 3 3 7 Sure hands 60k GP
0-2 Blocker 5 3 3 8 Wrestle, Grab 70k GS
0-4 Noble 7 3 3 8 Block, Dauntless, Juggernaut* 110k GA

The runner and blocker are fine... I prefer a little better blocker (+1MA or AV), but the concept is fine. For the linemen, I really prefer 5 3 3 7 Fend to 6 3 3 6 Fend, but I think that's personal taste... so I'm good with the linemen too.

The Knight/Noble is really OK, I just think it can be done in 2 skills. Also, while it's hard to quantify, this knight doesn't capture my imagination the same way as the 6 3 3 9 Juggernaut Dauntless one does. But I don't want to take too many points off for personal preference.

Verdict: A decent 4 position team with an overdescribed knight. Doesn't stand out and scream fun to me, but it doesn't seem broken either.

Bretonnians 2
0-16 Lineman 6 3 3 6 Fend 40k G - (alternatives: 5337 or 6327)
0-2 Yeoman 7 3 3 7 Sure hands 60k GP
0-6 Blitzer 7 3 3 8 Block, Stand Firm 100k GAS

Still OK with the linemen, and Yeomen/Squires/Runners are well done. The knight is basically fine on his own, but I think team wide Stand Firm and Fend is too much to start with. Also, with block on a starting piece and incredible skill access, the player doesn't have as many tough choices to make. Personal opinion again, but block starting players should have strength or agility, never both.

Verdict: A fine take on the 0-6 knights option, which is simply too effective out of the box at "holding the line." GAS on the knight seems excessive, but I would be willing to playtest it. This roster looks like fun to play as, but I think the frustration factor for other teams would be too high.

Bretonnians 3

0-16 Lineman 6 3 3 6 Fend 40k G - (alternatives: 5337 or 6327)
0-4 Yeoman 5 3 3 8 Wrestle, Grab 70k GS
0-4 Blitzer 8 3 3 8 Block, Dauntless 110k GS (A?)

Interesting, with a Yeoman and Linemen which work together well and really might dominate a game, or get blown off the LOS! But the Knight is going to raise too many red flags. No 8 3 3 8 player is going to be accepted at 0-4, so I'd just give up now Assuming a 7 3 3 8 or 6 3 3 9 Blitzer, I like the piece on it's own. But I'm not sure I like 0-8 Block/Wrestlers. I have a big problem with out of the box risk mitigation. In my mind, keep 0-4 players with block or wrestle on a starting roster, and 2 other players can have one of the other power skills (Dodge, guard, mighty blow, side step)

Verdict: I like the 4 and 4 concept. The team seems a bit too good despite the crappy linos. I'm not convinced they really will be bad, but 8 3 3 8 and 8 block/Wrestlers is an instant tournament team It doesn't really capture my imagination as much as Marlow's roster, but it's better than the 4 positional roster above. I think the extra positional is unfocusing the team... stick to 2 positionals and a lineman, in my mind.

Marlow's roster

Bretonnians
0-16 Peasents 6 3 3 7 Fend 50k G
0-2 Yeoman 5 3 3 8 Wrestle, Sure Hands 70k GP
0-6 Knights 6 3 3 9 Block, Catch, Dauntless 110k GS

I dislike the 8 block/wrestlers. But everything else I'm OK with. I'd prefer 5 3 3 7 linemen, but it's not a necessity. If you changed Block to Juggernaught, or changed Wrestle to another skill (Side Step?) on the Yeoman, I would really enjoy this team a lot. As it is, I do like it.

[DG_Slider]

Well,
Since it seems like everyone else has stated their position I guess I will too

We tried one of the Bretonnian lists and it didn't really keep anyone's interest so we decided to update it a bit. Although we are not in league play the team has been fun a few one-off games. Ok, so here's the reasoning and fluff behind these decisions.

We decided that as a human team that had to have its own personality we agreed it should be a running team without Pass access. We also didn't want just lineman and knights on the roster. We figured the new Bretonnian army features Pilgrims and that they would be poor linemen. We liked the ideas of Knight Errants trying to prove themselves. We figured what better way then to score in bloodbowl, not in blocking everything, they're not slayers afterall. Knights of course are the strength, able to hold the line or take down superior opponents, they do that regularly. However, we figured they are usually on horseback so running in that heavy armor will slow them down. Recognizing this problem the Knights started training their Squires to help them as they do on the battlefield, hence only two of each. So this is how it worked out:


0-16 Pilgrims (Linemen): 5/3/2/8 G 40k
0-2 Squires (Blockers): 7/3/3/8 Guard G 70k
0-2 Errants (Runners): 7/3/3/8 Sure Hands, Fend GA 90k
0-2 Knights (Blitzers): 6/3/3/9 Dauntless, Juggernaut, Stand Firm GS 110k
Re-Rolls: 70k

This allows for a rough starting roster of 2 Knights, 2 Errants, 2 Squires, 6 Pilgrims, and 3 rerolls (oh and 1 FF). 12 total starting players.

Since the team lacks finesse and has to run the ball against stronger opposition, the Guard skill on the squires allows them to help Knights and Errants overcome such foes. The Fend was the closest thing to a stiff arm in the game and provides the Errant with a little help when caught out on his own. The Knights are beasts able to hold the line or blitz effectively. The team has decent mobility and decent armor so they can hang in for the duration. The fact the Squire only has General access will hopefully off set the guard skill; making them harder to develop.

The only thing we are concerned about is maybe increasing the cost of rerolls to 80K but playtesting will help resolve that issue. Besides, 80k seemed extremely high.

What do guys think of this one? In any case, you should play test it once, it's a load of fun.

[DDogwood]

In my experience you can't post a new team, no matter how puny, without someone posting that it is broken.

The test I use is to ask myself "Would I enjoy coaching this team?", and then "would I enjoy playing against this team?". It's subjective, and far from perfect, but I won't say a team is overpowered, underpowered, or unbalanced unless I honestly feel that way.

I know that I'm also biased against Bretonnian teams in general, but it's almost always because they are either too powerful or too similar to existing rosters.

From a "counts as" perspective, the Chaos Dwarf, Human, Orc, and Vampire teams could all work to describe a Bretonnian team just by changing the names of the players and not using Big Guys. So, in my opinion, there's not a lot of room for a Bretonnian team to add something different to the game.

[plasmoid]

Hi DDogwood.
I certainly didn't mean that you were lying! Just that I think you may be wrong in your estimation of power.
Case in point, the current Bretonnian team in the MBBL. I had a poll to estimate their power - came out as a tier 1.5 team.
As it happens, with strong coaches, they've won something like 20% of their games!

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem playing against these. Mind you, if a few playtest games came back "all wins", I'd want them to change

I know that I'm also biased against Bretonnian teams in general, but it's almost always because they are either too powerful or too similar to existing rosters.

Right. Too powerful is a possibility. Testing can show whether they are or not.
But I don't see any of these teams as too similar to existing teams. Do you?

Cheers
Martin

[Darkson]

Just like to point out the majority of respondents to this thread don't want a Brett roster.

[Marlow]

their is a fair bit of way between a tactic and a broken game element. I don't think that a few wrestler and cheap linemen is going to turn into excessive power by foul attrition. If that were the case, we would have seen it in LRB5 with or without this team.

I am propably bitter after having been crushed by a team of DP Skeltons, but I see your point it is not overly powerful.

As for MA6 AV9 knights, that's not impossible. I'm not thrilled about it, because it's such an orcish AV, but I know you're not alone.

I based the stats on an Orc Blitzer, and added the Catch to give that Egotistical Knight Feel. To me a Knight needs high AV, and has a slow speed because he is wearing all the Armour.

As for the GAS access, I suggested it before for Amazon Blitzer and was told it would be too powerful so was just repeating that back. I can see that a player that does not have to roll Doubles to get any of the skills you want could be considered excessivly good...

I dislike the 8 block/wrestlers. But everything else I'm OK with. I'd prefer 5 3 3 7 linemen, but it's not a necessity. If you changed Block to Juggernaught, or changed Wrestle to another skill (Side Step?) on the Yeoman, I would really enjoy this team a lot. As it is, I do like it.

Thanks! I tried to average out the other Yeoman suggestions which is why I left them with wrestle, and I thought Pass or Dump Off just made them a standard Thrower/Runner. Side Step is good, or how about Sure Feet?

Just like to point out the majority of respondents to this thread don't want a Brett roster.

I also do not think we need Chaos Pact, Underworld or four different Elf teams, but we have them.

Marlow's roster
Bretonnians
0-16 Peasents 6 3 3 7 Fend 50k G
0-2 Yeoman 5 3 3 8 Side Step, Sure Hands 70k GP
0-6 Knights 6 3 3 9 Block, Catch, Dauntless 110k GS

or
0-16 Peasents 5 3 3 7 Fend 40k G

[DDogwood]

Hi DDogwood.
I certainly didn't mean that you were lying! Just that I think you may be wrong in your estimation of power.

Fair enough, I didn't feel that I was being accused of lying. I may be wrong in my estimation of their power - I just wanted to point out that my concern wasn't that they are overpowered because I'd lose to them a lot, but because I think I'd win with them too much.

Case in point, the current Bretonnian team in the MBBL. I had a poll to estimate their power - came out as a tier 1.5 team.
As it happens, with strong coaches, they've won something like 20% of their games!

Sure, but that roster (if it's the one I'm thinking of) is just a variant on the Human roster with crappy AV on the throwers and linemen, and two variants on the Blitzer. There is nothing that it can do that the Human roster can't do just as well.

I know that I'm also biased against Bretonnian teams in general, but it's almost always because they are either too powerful or too similar to existing rosters.

Right. Too powerful is a possibility. Testing can show whether they are or not.
But I don't see any of these teams as too similar to existing teams. Do you?

As I said, the MBBL2 Bret roster is very similar to the Human roster. The more recent ones in this thread are different from the Human roster, but some of them wouldn't end up playing that much differently.

I am also vehemently opposed to the "squire" or "yeoman" position - it just doesn't make sense to me. The squires/yeomen should be on the sidelines, polishing the knights'/nobles' gear, not on the pitch playing the game.

[Darkson]

Just like to point out the majority of respondents to this thread don't want a Brett roster.

I also do not think we need Chaos Pact, Underworld or four different Elf teams, but we have them.

Ah, but this thread was started as a direct response on wheter we should have a Bret roster or not, not on what a Bret roster should be.
Plas has got plenty of those threads already.

[Daefaroth]

Step 1: Put down stick.
Step 2: Check Horse for pulse:
---If Horse is not dead:
-----A: Retrieve stick.
-----B: Continue beating horse for a while.
-----C: Return to Step 1.
---If Horse is dead:
-----A: Find shovel.
-----B: Bury the poor thing.
-----C: Retrieve stick.
-----D: Find New Horse to beat.
-----E: Return to Step 1.


Roughly 2/3 of people in this thread think that there should not be a Bret roster. The remaining 1/3 are nowhere near a consensus. Doing a search here on TBB shows Brettonian threads going back for nearly 6 years without anyone getting anywhere near a roster that a majority likes. I think it is getting time to cut your losses. If you can't get an agreement in 6 years most likely you are never going to get one. Now I'm not saying that you shouldn't use Brets in your league or that they shouldn't be added to the LRB, just that you are going to have to build it yourself or wait for JJ to write it (which sounds like it could happen). Polling here is slowly getting nowhere.


For the record, I don't care one way or the other about Bret teams. I don't anticipate playing them myself, but as long as they are balanced I don't mind my opp having the option to play them. I don't even really care if the team is 'fun' or 'unique', as long as the team lands in the ballpark of Tiers 1 or 2, I'm fine with it.

[Jural]

Darkson,

Just like your league's houserules and opinions aren't hurting anyone, and aren't having an effect on official Blood Bowl Rules, why can't you let Plasmoid have his (albeit quixotic) quest to have a Bretonnian team?

Maybe something great will come out of it! More likely, another 99 pages of useless team ideas which will never be playtested will come out of it. But either way, who cares? It's a new concept forum on a web site devoted to a game which isn't supported by the people holding the IP where individual minis are impossible to find, and many of the community's most interesting posters are gone.

Surely the continued interest of one person and the sporadic interest of 5 to 10 more people isn't going to be an issue, why not just let it be?