Should Brettonians be in Bloodbowl?

[Kyrel]

You know, I'd sort of like to ask all of you Bretonnia Team fans to answer me this:

- What is your vision for this team?
- What is your impression of the Blood Bowl world?
- How does Bretonnia fit into this world?

The reason I'm asking these questions, is because it's my impression that there is a general concensus that the Blood Bowl world isn't the same world as the Warhammer Fantasy world. Hence I ask the above.

While I'm personally opposed to adding a Bretonnia team, I'll ad my own take on the issues I ask.

Vision for the team:
It has to be different in some way to the rest of the (human) teams out there. I'd want to stick to the standard Lineman, Thrower, Catcher, Blitzer, Blocker titles. Drawing loosely on the WhFB Bretonnia fluff, I'd want some hard-ass Blitzers and Blockers backed up by semi-crappy Linemen. I'd want the team to be a running team with little in the way of a passing game.

Vision of the world:
In my book, the Blood Bowl world is basically "our world" merely populated with some of the various races you can also find in the Warhammer world. Arguably it might be a possible far future of the Warhammer world. General warfare is more or less a thing of the past, and people now intermingle a whole lot more. You have large cities with mixed populations, and you have big "international" coorporations like Orcidas etc. Basically you'll find many of the type of companies you'd find in our world today. In this world, Blood Bowl is THE sport that everyone tends to watch. Sort of like the NFL in the USA, and Soccer for most of the rest of the world.

How does Bretonnia fit into this world:
Bretonnia in this world, would IMO have moved on from the Warhammer type feudal society with knights and peasants, and have developed into a society dominated by super-rich company owners and a lower class of workers existing on minimum wages, but possibly with some sort of wellfare system for the old, sick, and unemployed.
A Bretonnia Blood Bowl team would possibly reflect this "division" in society, to the effect that your average player might be able to make a slightly better living playing as a Lineman on a Blood Bowl team, than he would be able to make as a regular labourer, but players with superiour skills (Blitzers & Blockers) would be able to claim exorbitant wages.

At the end of the day I might end up with something like this:

0-16 Linemen, 5 3 3 7, -, GA, 40.000
0-2 Blockers, 5 4 2 9, Block, Stand Firm, GS, 100.000
0-4 Blitzers, 6 4 3 9, Dauntless, Juggernaut, GS, 120.000
Re-Rolls: 70.000

Anyway, just a thought. In general I'm still opposed to adding a Bretonnia team at all.

[Jural]

This is not really helpful at this point, but I don't get the idea of "inferior" linemen. Being a peasant doesn't make you any less skilled at the pitch compared to the lineman on the normal Human roster.

For me, I really think the peasants are makeweights. They are undernourished and don't even train with the team! The knights just need enough bodies to allow themselves to compete, and don't spend time and effort feeding the linemen well or training them.

I disagree that this is the ONLY way to view the team. Certainly 6 3 3 7 or 6 3 3 8 would be reasonable. Very reasonable. I just think it's more fun for me the other way.

The Brettonian team could only be fun if it was significantly unique and different from other rosters, but still in some ways similar to the human rosters. My idea is that crappy linemen is part of this package.

[Darkson]

but you don't see those maidens on the BloodBowl pitch.

Really? You should check out some of the vamp teams I've seen (no pics unfortunately).

[Jural]

but you don't see those maidens on the BloodBowl pitch.

Really? You should check out some of the vamp teams I've seen (no pics unfortunately).

Seriously! I was looking around for Dark Elf Assasin models last night on EBay and the internet, and it's amazing how many companies make "Female blood bowl teams." I was pretty surprised, is that market really there?

Also, I'm not happy that it's impossible to get assasin minis, or even Horkon Heartripper... although I was able to find a mislabeled one on EBay.

[DDogwood]

You know, I'd sort of like to ask all of you Bretonnia Team fans to answer me this:

- What is your vision for this team?
- What is your impression of the Blood Bowl world?
- How does Bretonnia fit into this world?

I'm also opposed to a Bretonnian team (the Human roster works perfectly well), but since there still seems to be a lot of support for the idea, I'm adding my own input. Your questions are certainly worth considering, though.

To me, an acceptable Bretonnian team would have to be something that is significantly different from the other 3 human teams already out there. To me, that means that mimicking Human positions, like Catchers and Throwers, is right out. The vast majority of proposed Bretonnian teams I've seen are either overpowered versions of the Human roster, or simply weird variations on the Human roster with "Knight", "Squire", "Peasant" and so on substituted for Blitzers, Throwers, Linemen, and so on.

My impression of the Blood Bowl world is that it's a parody of fantasy settings in general, and Warhammer in particular, as well as a parody of the world of professional sports. It doesn't need to be internally consistent, so there's no need to imagine what Bretonnia would be like in "the Blood Bowl setting".

Bretonnia should fit into the world as a parody of the Bretonnia in Warhammer. The themes in Bretonnia are Arthurian Fantasy, High Medieval Europe, and wealthy corrupt nobles lording it over pathetic diseased peasants.

That's why I proposed my 2-position roster. Getting rid of throwers, catchers, squires, and whatever else allows a Bretonnian team to escape any tactical similarity to the Human roster. It also allows the team to focus on what, IMO, are the two key stereotypes of Bretonnian society: filthy, stupid, useless peasants and proud, wealthy, arrogant Knights.

I understand Ullis' argument that Bretonnian peasants/linemen could be just as athletically-talented as any other human players (like Thralls). On the other hand, it's funnier if the peasants are only there as makeweights who have little or no chance of stealing the Knights' thunder. IMO, peasants should NOT be scoring TDs except in the most dire circumstances. If you need a justification, you could say that all the peasants with strong athletic abilities are also bright enough to run away and join Human teams instead of being the downtrodden scum of the Bretonnian team.

Knights shouldn't be significantly better than normal human Blitzers. Since Blitzers are the stars of the Human team, they seem like a natural fit for the Knight position. If there are no other positions on the team besides useless peasants, then it opens the roster up to allow up to 6 of these very good players. To make things a little more interesting, the Knights should start with an additional skill that's not too commonly seen, and that isn't overpowered when it appears in large numbers. Juggernaut is a good fit, because it can only be used by 1 player per turn; if the linemen have Fend, it also makes a certain amount of sense - the Knights are better at pushing peasants around than most other players. Other skills that might be appropriate are Kick, Leader, or Thick Skull.

Likewise, if peasants have a crappy statline, like 5/3/2/7, they need something to justify a 40k price tag (because anything cheaper is overpowering on a Tier 1 or Tier 2 team. This is an opportunity to give them a relatively-uncommon skill. As long as it doesn't do anything to steal the Knights' thunder, or make them overpowered, it should be fine. Any of Fend, Wrestle, Sneaky Git, or Thick Skull would probably be fine, although Wrestle and Sneaky Git might be over the top in such large numbers.

[plasmoid]

Ooh. OOOOh. There is so much I want to reply to in the past page and a half.
But I'm stuck in a small house with the inlaws, so cpu time is scarce.
I'll try to get back real soon.
I hope the threadisn't dead by then.
Cheers
Martin

[Ullis]

I see the BB world as a mirror universe of the Warhammer Fantasy world. At least I won't buy that modern world stuff.

I guess I need to get over feeling sorry for the poor peasants. The idea that all the good peasants play in normal Human teams is excellent and explains wonderfully why the linemen would be bad, although I'd go with the Thrall statline. Maybe just A access, so they wouldn't get skills like Sure hands or Block. Dodge, on the other hand, would make perfect sense. Not letting them score (as evidenced by low MA or AG) is kind of iffy, because I figure the knights still want to win games, don't they?

[mattgslater]

I don't think the knights would feel the need to hog all the TDs. Maybe they'd want to hand-pick the TD hogs (hence squires/pages as runners/receivers), but scoring isn't the romantic, glorious part of football from a knight's perspective: the romantic, glorious part happens on the line if you're a knight.

[DDogwood]

I don't think the knights would feel the need to hog all the TDs. Maybe they'd want to hand-pick the TD hogs (hence squires/pages as runners/receivers), but scoring isn't the romantic, glorious part of football from a knight's perspective: the romantic, glorious part happens on the line if you're a knight.

I disagree. My view is that the Knights would want to hog everything that provides SPPs. TDs are more important than casualties for any team.

[plasmoid]

I'm 100% with Ddogwood here:
The knights have massive egos. Who gets all the glory? Who gets talked about when the game is over? Who gets all the ladies?
The guy who scored the winning touchdown!

Cheers
Martin

[Jural]

I agree with Matt, actually.

Nobles would need to score the TD's, but not knights. Arthurian knightly valor comes from standing toe to toe with your enemy, not hiding behind the peasants!

Now of course real knights were nobility, and really did hide behind their peasants So I can go either way. But frankly, that's why I like the 0-6 knights option. The knights are in the trenches kicking butt AND the ones breaking through for scores. And the peasants are trying not to get killed in droves.

[plasmoid]

Hi guys, very interesting discussion this.
Too bad Joemanji pulled out. He's got good ideas. I wonder why he left.

Right - some theory stuff first:
Ullis said: It just doesn't make any sense that the knights wouldn't pick the best peasants from the fields.
1) Balance and fluff take precedence over logic here - not just on this team.
Why does a human team use linemen, when they could just have 11 blitzers.
Why do undead teams use zombies instead of wights.
There is no logic there. Just fluff and balance.

But if you want a fluff reply, I think DDogwood put it excellently!:

If you need a justification, you could say that all the peasants with strong athletic abilities are also bright enough to run away and join Human teams instead of being the downtrodden scum of the Bretonnian team.

Similarly, Bretonnian blitzers, even though slightly "über", are not employed by other human teams, because they're just so obnoxious!

Ullis said: From a fluffy perspective, imagine a yearly festival, where all the young men from the neigbouring villages vie for the glory of being picked for the baron's BloodBowl team and training with him.
Actually - that's a Yeoman.
A hand-picked young man serving in a nobles household.
So that's pretty much the basis for the 3rd (optional) position on the team.

Kyrel said: In my book, the Blood Bowl world is basically "our world" merely populated with some of the various races you can also find in the Warhammer world.
Fluffwize, the BB world is the Warhammer World, but with some weird twists.
So we can take the basic idea of a feudal society, and twist it a bit - making it kinder, harsher or whatnot.

Kyrel said: It has to be different in some way to the rest of the (human) teams out there.
DDogwood said: To me, an acceptable Bretonnian team would have to be something that is significantly different from the other 3 human teams already out there. To me, that means that mimicking Human positions, like Catchers and Throwers, is right out.
I agree. I don't think that a Bretonnian should be created by taking the human team and shuffling a few skills around.
It needs to be unique to not be a waste of paper.

I think you, and pretty much everyone else who posts about Bretonnians can agree about:
1) A running based game.
2) Statlines that are recognizably human.
3) A "feudal" team hierarchy (great blitzers, cruddy lineme).

Finally, Jural said: Nobles would need to score the TD's, but not knights. Arthurian knightly valor comes from standing toe to toe with your enemy, not hiding behind the peasants!
But in Bretonnia, the nobility is also the knights!
I guess there are 2 takes on this then.
I see it like this: Yes, in warfare, knights do the fighting.
That's because they want to win - and you can't win at warfare by scoring "points".
In BB, you can. So that's what the knights would do.
But ofcourse, as blitzer types, they get to do both

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
I'll try to juggle a lot of ideas here.
First Jural commented:

Positionals should never compare negatively to a human lineman!
I don't think that 5338 with 2 skills compares negatively to 6338 with no skills!
I'd rather weaken them slightly, to have a little wiggle room to make the knights better (and the hierarchy clearer).

The knight is fine, but can you drop one of the skills or add in a more "Special" one? Juggernaut and Dauntless is plenty fluffy...
I think juggernaut is special. It certainly isn't mega popular skill choice.
But the big thing for me here is that a blitzer shouldn't start without block.
That's one of the things about the slann team that makes me cringe.

Do me a favor, if you don't mind. Give me your take on a roster with 0-6 knights.
Will do. 3 rosters coming:

Bretonnians 1
The one I posted on page 13, tweaked slightly after Jurals comments:
0-16 Lineman 6 3 3 6 Fend 40k G - (alternatives: 5337 or 6327)
0-2 Runner 7 3 3 7 Sure hands 60k GP
0-2 Blocker 5 3 3 8 Wrestle, Grab 70k GS
0-4 Noble 7 3 3 8 Block, Dauntless, Juggernaut* 110k GA

(*I still think pro would make them flashier. Anyone else than Joemanju Dislike pro?)

Bretonnians 2
On a 6 noble roster, I'd make the yeomen the ball getters.
0-16 Lineman 6 3 3 6 Fend 40k G - (alternatives: 5337 or 6327)
0-2 Yeoman 7 3 3 7 Sure hands 60k GP
0-6 Blitzer 7 3 3 8 Block, Stand Firm 100k GAS
I think with their power based on just 6 players, they'd need the A-skill access to be viable. Mind you, a block of 6 of those could be hard to handle. The team would have a lot for slowing down an offense. And I like stand firm for being an underused skill.

Bretonnians 3
I still prefer the idea of 4 nobles and their personal yeomen. I.e. a 4+4 line-up.
In this scenario, I'd make the Yeomen the players that clear the way for the nobles, so blockers rather than ball-getters.
0-16 Lineman 6 3 3 6 Fend 40k G - (alternatives: 5337 or 6327)
0-4 Yeoman 5 3 3 8 Wrestle, Grab 70k GS
0-4 Blitzer 8 3 3 8 Block, Dauntless 110k GS (A?)

I like this team for being run and bashy, but (IMO) without the power to really play 2-1 grind. If I'm the only one who can stomach 8338, then 7338 with sprint could work too. I just think that a bashy team that is neither strong nor tough really needs something special to be playable.

Those are my 3 takes.
Feel free to comment

[DDogwood]

Bretonnians 1
The one I posted on page 13, tweaked slightly after Jurals comments:
0-16 Lineman 6 3 3 6 Fend 40k G - (alternatives: 5337 or 6327)
0-2 Runner 7 3 3 7 Sure hands 60k GP
0-2 Blocker 5 3 3 8 Wrestle, Grab 70k GS
0-4 Noble 7 3 3 8 Block, Dauntless, Juggernaut* 110k GA

(*I still think pro would make them flashier. Anyone else than Joemanju Dislike pro?)

I think a 6/3/3/7 Lineman with Fend should cost more like 60k - I think that you are underestimating how powerful lots of Fend is for mssing up an offensive drive. I also think that Pro is too powerful a starting skill for any roster.

Bretonnians 2
On a 6 noble roster, I'd make the yeomen the ball getters.
0-16 Lineman 6 3 3 6 Fend 40k G - (alternatives: 5337 or 6327)
0-2 Yeoman 7 3 3 7 Sure hands 60k GP
0-6 Blitzer 7 3 3 8 Block, Stand Firm 100k GAS
I think with their power based on just 6 players, they'd need the A-skill access to be viable. Mind you, a block of 6 of those could be hard to handle. The team would have a lot for slowing down an offense. And I like stand firm for being an underused skill.

0-6 Knights/Blitzers won't work if there are more than 2 positions on the team. I don't think Yeomen need to be a part of the team at all, but if they are, it should be 0-2 Yeomen and 0-4 Knights or 0-4 Yeomen and 0-2 Knights. Also, 0-6 players with Stand Firm is over the top, and I still think that GAS access on any player without a nega-skill is over the top.

Bretonnians 3
I still prefer the idea of 4 nobles and their personal yeomen. I.e. a 4+4 line-up.
In this scenario, I'd make the Yeomen the players that clear the way for the nobles, so blockers rather than ball-getters.
0-16 Lineman 6 3 3 6 Fend 40k G - (alternatives: 5337 or 6327)
0-4 Yeoman 5 3 3 8 Wrestle, Grab 70k GS
0-4 Blitzer 8 3 3 8 Block, Dauntless 110k GS (A?)

These Blitzers are too powerful. They are comparable to the Necromantic Werewolf, but they get twice as many, and the rest of the team is quite a bit better than the Necro team.

I just think that a bashy team that is neither strong nor tough really needs something special to be playable.

Fair enough, but my take is that all three of these teams are pretty overpowered. The linemen are too powerful, the positionals are too good, and there are too many of them.

I still don't like the idea of Yeomen in the roster. I can kind of understand the fluff reasons for it, but I feel like they are always an attempt to make the team more similar to the Human team, when the Bretonnian team should be as different from the other human teams as possible (without venturing too far from human statlines).

Here is my revised view on what a Bretonnian team should look like:

0-16 Linemen/Peasants 6 3 2 7 Thick Skull 40k G
0-6 Blitzers/Nobles/Knights 7 3 3 8 Block, Leader 100k GS
60k Rerolls

I still think that Fend is an amazing skill in large numbers, and is pobably too powerful even on crappy linemen. This roster gives linemen who still suck at ball-handling, but can still tie up opposing players and lend assists to the nobles. I think that Leader is a great skill for the nobles, because it represents great all-round training without being overpowered.

This roster is a team that I would happily pit against any other Tier 1 team, and that I would also happily face with any other team.

[plasmoid]

Hi DDogwood,
regarding the roster you suggested:

This roster is a team that I would happily pit against any other Tier 1 team, and that I would also happily face with any other team.

Really? It looks weak to me.
Compare to a human team.
You'll be spending 60K (1 per knight) to get 1 team reroll. Fluffy. Cute . But a minimal net loss compared to 6 human blitzers and a reroll (590K vs 600K).

So apart from the ability to take 2 extra blitzers over a human team, you have...
Linemen with worse AG for 10K less. (AV7 + thick skull is a lot like AV8).
No throwers.
No catchers.
No big guy.
More expensive rerolls.
I don't think that the 2 blitzers can weigh up all that.

Could be wrong though. Perhaps others will comment.
Cheers
Martin