Negative Winnings rule .... revised

Got a great idea and/or proposal for BloodBowl?

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Xtreme
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Post by Xtreme »

Cervidal wrote:Forget 31. Just try getting to 16 with some of those stubborn positions! Saurus, Black Orcs, most Dwarves, and Khemri all have a helluva time getting anyone a second skill, let alone a third.

Combining aging with negative winnings would be just fine with me. To be honest, I'm still not seeing enough player turnover in any league situation I've personally witnessed. The march from 100-200 is still too quick and there's really not much to keep a team from getting up to 250 with minimal effort.
Every time I get on of those bastards up to 11 I remember the old days, and wait for 5 more Spps.

Guess I am in the sports managment camp as that is as much fun to me as what happens on the field.

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Post by Circular_Logic »

GalakStarscraper wrote:
Circular_Logic wrote:That´s why we play a game and not a sport-management-simulation :D
Which raises an interesting point. I know I want to and I know many others want to play both a game and a sports-management-simulation. I definitely know that what the BBRC under JJ's direction intends for the game. I think you hit the point that those folks who just want to play the game ... things like aging, negative winnings, etc, will never be a desired effect because they "detract" from what is perceived by those coaches as the fun of the game.

Its an interesting sidenote. How you approach the game effects very much how you view the current trends.

Galak
Well, usually I´m in the "more-complex-is-nearly-always-better"-camp. I have seen this argument quite often at rules-discussions about new concepts, so I just throwed it in, as it fits the situation quite well.

Considering the neg-winning, I have a look at some soccer-clubs (especially a bavarian one) and I come to the conclusion, that a team, that is really successfull in a really popular sport will never lack of money. AS Bloodbowl is THE GAME in it´s world, I can hardly believe, that cannot attract enough fans to make money through the gate, fan-merchandising and such stuff. That´s the fluff-wise point of view.
From the point of game-mechanics, you should be able to create a real super-team, but it should be nearly impossible, as it requires almost constant winning against equal teams, which is impossible, because you need the dice every game.
So what about this proposal:
As the team makes his own fanbase with every win, the winner my add (wins-losses)k Fans to the gate for every team, when calculating the winnings.

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Post by Joemanji »

I haven't read all of this thread, but I quite like Galak's idea in theory. Though I'm sure some tweaking to the wins table will be needed to fix the exact levels.

I like the team management element of the game. I'd like to see more of it; more things to do and buy in the post match sequence.

Look at football - super teams are almost impossible to maintain whilst balancing the books. If Arsenal failed to qualify for the champions league one year, they would be in real trouble. Just look at Leeds! :lol: Big teams rely on prize money to stay afloat - gate receipts can't sustain them in the long term.

That's the way sport works - in order to win you have to spend more than you can afford. But if you spend and don't win, then your debts can quickly spiral out of control. The magic of sport is that teams never truly "go under" - they can always rebuild and come back with a fresh batch of players.

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

Nazgit wrote:I haven't read all of this thread, but I quite like Galak's idea in theory. Though I'm sure some tweaking to the wins table will be needed to fix the exact levels.
I'm not convinced of this ... could be true. But all the math I did seemed to indicate the current tables are a pretty good set already.

Galak

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Post by Joemanji »

Just a throwaway comment, not a genuine complaint. I haven't checked the maths myself, so I'll take your work for it! :D

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Post by Circular_Logic »

Nazgit wrote:That's the way sport works - in order to win you have to spend more than you can afford. But if you spend and don't win, then your debts can quickly spiral out of control. The magic of sport is that teams never truly "go under" - they can always rebuild and come back with a fresh batch of players.
That´s the point. If you can continue to win, you should be able to continue with your good team.
So I would second any form of giving the winner of a game more cash and allowing a really successful coach to brake this virtual wall, as long as he manages to win against equal teams.

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Post by ScottyBoneman »

Circular_Logic wrote:
Nazgit wrote:That's the way sport works - in order to win you have to spend more than you can afford. But if you spend and don't win, then your debts can quickly spiral out of control. The magic of sport is that teams never truly "go under" - they can always rebuild and come back with a fresh batch of players.
That´s the point. If you can continue to win, you should be able to continue with your good team.
So I would second any form of giving the winner of a game more cash and allowing a really successful coach to brake this virtual wall, as long as he manages to win against equal teams.
That´s the point. If you can continue to win, you should be able to continue with your good team.
So I would second any form of giving the winner of a game more cash and allowing a really successful coach to brake this virtual wall, as long as he manages to win against equal teams.[/quote]
In ral sports, there is a really strong tendency for teams not to be able to keep their team together, often due to salary costs sometimes resulting from the success itself. Other teams that want to replicate the success try to hire away key pieces, etc.

Galak's system handles this without actually using appearance fees, re-hire costs and other things 95% of coaches will hate. If you want to justify the 'rising costs' model by mentally including salary costs, great, but these would be a positive change.

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Post by Joemanji »

Yeah, that was my point too. :wink: I like Galak's idea. I think I said that. :D I think that high TR teams should have to rely on prize money from winning tournaments outright in order to balance the books.

Yep, after all these years searching for ultra-complicated app fees, ageing etc, this rather simple solution may turn out to be the most effective.

Just so long as the measures for managing TR remain totally within the coach's control. No forced losses of re-rolls or players. A good coach will know when to drop these of his own free will. A bad coach won't. That's the game!

Also, if this rule ever become official, please let it be preceded by a lengthly introduction explaining all the factors (spiraling wages, poaching etc.) that will otherwise remain imaginary. Every rule needs some character, after all.

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Post by NightDragon »

I used to think that teams should be able to develop for as long as the Coach wanted them to. But having played since 1st ed I now firmly believe that team development needs a ceiling, the only debate being what that ceiling is. Why? Because I've seen bashy teams of over 400 TR that literally tear opponents apart and win everything. That is not competition. I instated a TR 300 ceiling in my League, that I think works well, but since taking part in discussions on this site I now believe that Galaks more flexible approach will work even better. I know what you said Galak and know you don't like aging. I just think it is a great shame you are not on the BBRC.

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

I think its probably for the best I not. JKL, Babs, and Chet all think I approach arguments like a unleashed force of nature. I wouldn't mind but those guys get enough abuse that its kinda nice being on the fringe helping without getting the abuse that the BBRC folks get when they express a thought. Its difficult for them to discuss in a forum because of who they are ... I like the debate and what comes of it when all are basically equals.

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Post by NightDragon »

I see your point, but you do seem to be more grounded in reality than them. This probably supports your point(!) and I don't mean any disresect to them, but you put a view across very convincingly. And the BBRC could do with this.

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Post by Joemanji »

I think the BBRC guys do a good job. Ideas need to be tested - that is the best way to solve a problem. It takes a strong person to find a balance between what is right for the game and what is popular.

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Post by Joemanji »

An inherent beauty of Galaks system is that it suddenly makes picking on teams much weaker than your own a lot less attractive. Which is whole point of all these TR capping systems - we wanted to stop old, powerful teams from destroying newbie teams.

New teams will have lower FF and so games against them will produce lower gates. Lower gates mean more chance of losing money.

Teams of equal power are likely to have similarly high FF, and so produce higher gates = less chance of losing money.

This can't be said of the BBB neg wins system. With that, there is always the chance of losing a re-roll or player, so you don't really have much to lose by agreeing to play any match.

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Post by Joemanji »

Ah, minor problem. With the current Match Winnings Table there is statisticsal "breakthrough" point.

A combined FF of 29 averages a gate of 101,500. The worst possible negative modifier at this level is -3 (for TR 301+). So at this point ALL teams will be back into averaging positive winnings.

Bearing in mind that everyone at TBB advocates staring a team with FF 9, a team only needs to reach FF 20 in order to reach this breakthough point. Once they do they will, statistically at least, be free from any and all the effects of negative winnings. So we have to start talking about Ageing and the like all over again... :roll:

This target of FF 20 is really not very hard to reach. Teams will always be gaining FF, even if they are losing money or TR. Once this level is reached, no matter what state the team is in, it will once again be in a position to build itself up to become untouchable.

Teams may have to play through a couple of growth cycles to get to this point, but once they do, it will be like Galak's system never existed.

Solutions?

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

Nazgit wrote: Solutions?
Couple things come to mind ...

1) An FF of 20 comes with an automatic -2 to your FF roll.
2) A good handicap table is still going to cause havoc for higher TR teams.

Like I said ... for me its a package deal ... one that I think will work.

The MBBL2 has agreed to try the following mix for Season 4:
1) Revised Negative winnings
2) No aging
3) Niggle rolls on the half
4) 10k freebooted apothecaries for a game instead of buying one permantently
5) Our current stronger handicap table to be kept over the LRB 2.0 one
6) Piling On Before the AV roll
7) Rule of 1 and 6 on FF ditched

Highest TR in the league right now is 253, so we'll see what happens

Galak

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