A small powerup for humans. Is it needed and is this good?

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Sun May 04, 2003 9:04 pm

Human blitzers tend to get Guard pretty quickly. Elves have a hard time dealing with a lot of guard on the table. An Ogre combined with four potential guards who have a 7 movement is a pretty fair chunk of hitting in the right hands.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Sun May 04, 2003 11:43 pm

What about my Human Big Guy ?

Man Ogre (Big Guy, Bone Head)
Blocker 4529 Block, Mighty Blow

Takes your "Ogre" slot. He's slower than an Ogre and lacks "Thick Skull" but hes knows how to "Block". He did that a couple of times to often so he's dumb (Bone Head) and deaf (Big Guy) by now.
And you can use the MIGHTY ZUG Model.

Icedman · Post by **Icedman** » Mon May 05, 2003 4:07 am

Taffsadar wrote: The problem is that your opponent can exploit the humans lack of strength too. Sure a High Elf team is slightly weaker than a human one due to their lack of Ogre but they are also able to dodge out and thus get assists easier which gives them an edge in the hitting game. A stronger team is able to practically do the same thing by getting a numerical advantage and thus stop human movement by sheer mass. A chance to give the humans a chance in the higher TR rating games (where they start getting issues due to opponents having either a bunch of blodging elfs or guarding Dwarfs). The best way to keep humans competable there too would be non Blitzing guys with Strength skill access...

With this, i'm pretty much agreeing with what Skummy said: Guard on the Blitzers goes a long way towards rectifying these problems. All I'd really have to add is the idea of "thinking outside the box"... Catchers with Leap, Blitzers with Stand Firm, things like that. Basically, if you can't go through a team, go around them. The greatest strength of the Human team is that it can adapt to any situation. That adaptiveness has to be used, or, as you have pointed out yourself, your game/team will stall.

Taffsadar wrote: ...but I might be biased due to beating up quite alot of humans on fumbbl.com

Have you kicked my butt yet

If so, you certainly wouldn't have been the first

Taffsadar · Post by **Taffsadar** » Mon May 05, 2003 3:31 pm

The ending of my last message got accidently arrogant, I didn't mean it in a sarcastic way. I was trying to seriously say that I might have been biased due to unfortunate circumstances. Thank you for not noticing that before I put up a disclaimer

.

Btw the leaping catcher thing made me remember my own experiences with that, a very short one since a leaping catcher fail every second time... He died in his first game leaping for a touchdown

.

Post by **Thadrin** » Mon May 05, 2003 5:26 pm

Toby wrote:What about my Human Big Guy ?

Man Ogre (Big Guy, Bone Head)
Blocker 4529 Block, Mighty Blow

Takes your "Ogre" slot. He's slower than an Ogre and lacks "Thick Skull" but hes knows how to "Block". He did that a couple of times to often so he's dumb (Bone Head) and deaf (Big Guy) by now.
And you can use the MIGHTY ZUG Model.

Strength 5 with block to start...NO in every language that there has ever been.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Mon May 05, 2003 5:43 pm

Thads, as soon as an Ogre collects 6 SPP he's way better; MA5 + Thick Skull. Just think about it. All Humans are ST3;

Im not saying ALL Big Guys should start with block; Just the Human one - and hes only on the Human Team...

Taffsadar · Post by **Taffsadar** » Mon May 05, 2003 5:45 pm

Toby wrote:What about my Human Big Guy ?

Man Ogre (Big Guy, Bone Head)
Blocker 4529 Block, Mighty Blow

Takes your "Ogre" slot. He's slower than an Ogre and lacks "Thick Skull" but hes knows how to "Block". He did that a couple of times to often so he's dumb (Bone Head) and deaf (Big Guy) by now.
And you can use the MIGHTY ZUG Model.

This is exactly what I wanted to avoid (just like the idea of S4 blockers) as it would mean that the humans got reliant on a single superman. They doesn't need a big leg up just a smaller one to let their Blitzer work as scorers instead of mostly doing guard duties.

Post by **Thadrin** » Mon May 05, 2003 6:14 pm

Toby wrote:Thads, as soon as an Ogre collects 6 SPP he's way better; MA5 + Thick Skull. Just think about it. All Humans are ST3;

Im not saying ALL Big Guys should start with block; Just the Human one - and hes only on the Human Team...

By that coin, what about when this guy gets HIS 6 SPP and takes Break Tackle, Tackle, Stand Firm, Guard or any of the other skills that make him a complete brute?

This guy will get those skills a lot quicker too, as ST5 and Block is considerably more potent than ST5 without even if he does lack Mighty Blow.

Back on topic: the Human team does NOT need any sort of leg up, especially if they wind up being only one of two or three rosters that can take Ogres.

Taffsadar · Post by **Taffsadar** » Mon May 05, 2003 7:35 pm

[quote="Thadrin]Back on topic: the Human team does NOT need any sort of leg up, especially if they wind up being only one of two or three rosters that can take Ogres.[/quote]

Sorry but fumbbl and the voting on this forum have convinced me of the opposite, sure IF they are one of the few with ogres. Sure then they will be pretty good. But at the moment they just doesn't stand up to teams with S4 players or Ag4 players or teams with lots of block or Av9.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Tue May 06, 2003 8:08 am

Taffsadar wrote: Sorry but fumbbl and the voting on this forum have convinced me of the opposite, sure IF they are one of the few with ogres. Sure then they will be pretty good. But at the moment they just doesn't stand up to teams with S4 players or Ag4 players or teams with lots of block or Av9.

So, please convince us. Surely you can convince us about that too.

-They have decent AV, AG and MA
-They have good catchers
-They have good blitzers
-They have decent throwers and linefodder
-They're cheap
-They have an Ogre

I'm sorry, but your claims lack substance. Humans are a good team. It may not be the best team, but it definitely doesn't need any good positional players added to it.

Taffsadar · Post by **Taffsadar** » Tue May 06, 2003 9:27 pm

Mestari wrote: So, please convince us. Surely you can convince us about that too.

-They have decent AV, AG and MA
-They have good catchers
-They have good blitzers
-They have decent throwers and linefodder
-They're cheap
-They have an Ogre

I'm sorry, but your claims lack substance. Humans are a good team. It may not be the best team, but it definitely doesn't need any good positional players added to it.

The problem is that all the things they got a are decent things, compare for example with a Chaos team.

-They have good Av decent Ag and bad Ma.
-They doesn't have any catchers.
-They got 0-12 excellent blitzer for chep.
-Their linefodder got S4 and is excellent.
-They are darn hard and good at knocking balls loos.
-They have an Ogre.

The hard part of bloodbowl is to play according to your strengths, in the humans case that means doing the thing your opponent is bad at. The problem is that the human team doesn't really stand up in the passing game and any failure means your opponent will be able to turn the drive into a running play which the humans really can't stop since Chaos are superior in the bashy type of game. When the game turns into bashy the humans only have their speed advantage and that doesn't help much since blitzer only got 1 better movement and that is easily spent trying to get around or behind the Chaos lines.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Tue May 06, 2003 11:05 pm

Taffsadar wrote:-They got 0-12 excellent blitzer for chep.

But only 1 per turn (and I'd rather have ST3 Block than ST3 Horns)

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed May 07, 2003 1:32 am

I'm sorry, but when did Chaos Warriors become line fodder? You're paying 20K extra for that 3 AG. If you're using them like Black Orcs, you're using them wrong!

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Wed May 07, 2003 7:33 am

Taffsadar wrote: The hard part of bloodbowl is to play according to your strengths, in the humans case that means doing the thing your opponent is bad at. The problem is that the human team doesn't really stand up in the passing game and any failure means your opponent will be able to turn the drive into a running play which the humans really can't stop since Chaos are superior in the bashy type of game. When the game turns into bashy the humans only have their speed advantage and that doesn't help much since blitzer only got 1 better movement and that is easily spent trying to get around or behind the Chaos lines.

Look at the FUMMBL racial development stats(http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=stats&op=development): Humans are clearly ahead of chaos in all categories. Humans are not the best, but they have no glaring weaknesses either.

I cannot avoid having the feeling that you've failed to play humans according to their strengths - good overall performance. If you feel that a certain team is weak it's not always the fault of the capabilities of the roster.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed May 07, 2003 11:52 pm

Taffsadar wrote:To me Humans seems to be abit too weak. Not extremly much but enough to be annoying. The main reason for this seems to be their lack of positional players and rather incompetent linemen.

What are you smoking? Humans have 10 positional players. Add an Ogre to that, and they don't even need to field a lineman at all!

By your argument, it's chaos dwarves who need help, with fewer positional players than humans have and even more crappy linemen.

Humans are perfectly fine as they are.

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A small powerup for humans. Is it needed and is this good?

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