New Handicap Suggestion

[narkotic]

Yes I see,

If you feel that it would not be random enough, then just change the rule to say that the coach has to pick the highest even available to him, then the highest one still available with the TRD left, and so on. That way, he has absolutely no control over it and the randomness is right back in. I'd rather have it without the randomness, but if that's what the majority wants, i could accept such a thing.

but if he has to pick the highest (to him) available result and then the next etc, the coach will have even less control as before bc he can not say "well, I have 30 TRD but I would rather spend three rolls on the lowest table than one at the medium".

I prefer when the coach has some broad control but not an exact pick.

About randomeness or not, its the spice and the bane of game enjoyment. Alas, everything except the initial team composition is based on randomness in some sort. I think a handicap table with dice rolls just fits into this game notion (I know this is not a 100% rational argument)

But I have to admit that your proposal would make the table more accurate (as you said).

[Zombie]

For a rough idea of what it could look like, check it out here:

http://www-edu.gel.usherbrooke.ca/lals1501/Handicap.htm

Note that if the coach can't choose and has to take the highest and so on, the "news feature" should be brought down quite a lot.

[narkotic]

For a rough idea of what it could look like, check it out here:

http://www-edu.gel.usherbrooke.ca/lals1501/Handicap.htm

Note that if the coach can't choose and has to take the highest and so on, the "news feature" should be brought down quite a lot.

I had a look on your table and I like it. I think both systems are better than what we have now. Personally, I could live with both, I guess its just personal preference if you have three tables to chose from or different valued results to pick among. On the other hand, automatically giving the highest result to the lower team can be exploited in open leagues or casual play bc the stronger team will know what handicaps he will suffer beforehand, so he can chose to play against someone else / with another of his own teams. Considering this, I would prefer Milo’s system as it introduced minor randomness (if I had to chose between picking results and chosing tables).

Something I noticed is that you have listed some of the results which I perceive as quite harmful in the midfield (I am the greatest, appereance fee, assassin and) and some in your top field are overestimated which should moved down (under scrutiny, it wasn’t me). I think, Milo’s tables are more appropriate in classifying the results into low, medium and hard effects (for my understanding that means).

[Zombie]

Something I noticed is that you have listed some of the results which I perceive as quite harmful in the midfield (I am the greatest, appereance fee, assassin and) and some in your top field are overestimated which should moved down (under scrutiny, it wasn’t me). I think, Milo’s tables are more appropriate in classifying the results into low, medium and hard effects (for my understanding that means).

I am the greatest : two players are selected randomly, and the opposing coach can choose which of those he won't put on the field, and can change his mind every drive. Most of the time, this will mean that he will keep a player on the bench whom he would have kept there anyway.

Appearance fees : on average, you need to pay 17,5k to be able to field your player. That's not even 20k! Pretty low... Most of the time, all this will do is take some money out of the team's treasury, and have absolutely no impact on the game itself.

Assassin : most of the time, the player will only be stunned, which means (if i interpret it correctly) that he will only miss the first drive. You've only got a 1 in 6 chance of getting better than a KO, and even if by some miracle you do, he'll probably use the apothecary on the guy anyway if the match carries any kind of significance at all.

Under scrutiny : funny you think that i overestimate it and Milo doesn't, as he puts it on par with virus! If you think that's not a good handicap, your league probably doesn't foul a lot. It also does a lot to help the weakest team's survival, which it needs when meeting a team much higher than itself.

It wasn't me : again, Milo puts this on par with virus, so it doesn't make any sense for you to say that i overestimate it and he doesn't. It's one less player for the other team to field, and he can't do anything about it. Also, most of the time (11 in 16 if he has a full team, more often if he doesn't), this is a player he would have placed on the field, and he'll have to use a weaker one. I guess it could be moved right after illegal drugs.

Also, consider these : bad habits, doom and gloom and extra training. All are pretty equal in effect. I placed them all close to one another. Milo, on the other hand, put them in 3 different tables. Not only that, but he put the strongest of them all in the weakest table!


Of course, my table is just a first sketch, and could be modified as discussion and playtesting show some elements to be a little out of place.


Edit : i've altered the table to put "it wasn't me" right after "illegal drugs" as promised.

[Ghost of Pariah]

Milo, your system kicks ass. I like it. Some of the results may need tweaking but I think that is something that can wait until playtesting shows a need.

I'm behind this all the way!

[narkotic]

@ Zombie

Read your points:

I am the greatest: my fault. I overlooked "randomly", it's not as devastating as I thought.

Appearance Fee: theoretically it's not much money but in fact many coaches try to spend their money in such a way that they do not have unused money lying around which can rise their TR (so they cannot pay it), on the other hand this hits high TR teams harder as they will much less money or they are trying to save money for a new pruchase. As this effect hits the best player in the team, they will pay, delaying the purchase of a new positional player and/or emptying their coffers even more.

Assassin: Whit this you can try to snipe his Block/Pile On Ogre, or his Block/Dodge/+ST Blitzer. Yes on average you will roll stuns but you get the chance to eliminate a player whom you will have a hard time getting off the pitch once the match begins. I don't think he will use the apothecary on this player unless its a permanent injury or dead as having a team with many high-skilled players you want to use the apo for (real) emergency cases.

Under Scrutiny: Yes, we do not foul that often. Ok, I lack experience in this field.

It wasn't me: This should be moved in both systems into midfield (I never said that all selections Milo done are 100%, I just got the impression that your selection needs a little bit more overhaul than his)

bad habits, doom and gloom and extra training: they seem different to me as extra training gives the weaker team just 1RR, this won't do if the other team is much stronger (that's why its on the low table, I guess), Doom and gloom hits stronger teams much more having 5RRs toned down to 2RR is more devastating compared to 2RRs become 1 (deserving its place in the top table). Bad habbit is somewhere in between as FF either has no game play effect (FF can be high or low on both weak and strong teams or you just don't roll Kick-off effects that require a FF roll).

But all these are no real problems as your table (and supposedly Milo's too) are first drafts, and play testing/discussion will has to be done before having a 100% satisfying ranking.

[Milo]

Milo, your system kicks ass. I like it. Some of the results may need tweaking but I think that is something that can wait until playtesting shows a need.

I'm behind this all the way!

Thanks, Pariah. I got some feedback from Chet on some ways to revise the handicap table, so expect a second draft soon.

[Zombie]

bad habits, doom and gloom and extra training: they seem different to me as extra training gives the weaker team just 1RR, this won't do if the other team is much stronger (that's why its on the low table, I guess), Doom and gloom hits stronger teams much more having 5RRs toned down to 2RR is more devastating compared to 2RRs become 1 (deserving its place in the top table). Bad habbit is somewhere in between as FF either has no game play effect (FF can be high or low on both weak and strong teams or you just don't roll Kick-off effects that require a FF roll).

The reason why extra training is the strongest is because the low-TR team supposedly has fewer rerolls, so one more or less makes a bigger difference in their case.

Bad habits doesn't have anything to do with FF. It takes one reroll away from the strongest team, and that's a bit weaker than extra training.

Doom and gloom on average will take away two rerolls (as most strong teams have 4 or 5), but for one half only. The other two events affect the number of rerolls for both halves. So this result is only marginally stronget than bad habits. The only reason why it's stronger is that i'd prefer losing 1 reroll each half than 2 rerolls in the first half and none in the second.

[narkotic]

Bad habits doesn't have anything to do with FF. It takes one reroll away from the strongest team, and that's a bit weaker than extra training.

Its getting too late here, I'm confusing things (I thought of bad habbits, but bad press in mind). It must be no fun to discuss things with someone who messes up his points.

[narkotic]

I got some feedback from Chet on some ways to revise the handicap table, so expect a second draft soon.

Soon sounds good!

[Raven_Talons]

Ok from what I get say I have a team rating of 123 and my oppinit has 167 that is 44 point differnce. Is that the points I get to spend on the charts yo shown( so far I liek the idea)

[Milo]

Ok from what I get say I have a team rating of 123 and my oppinit has 167 that is 44 point differnce. Is that the points I get to spend on the charts yo shown( so far I liek the idea)

Right. With 44 points, you could roll once on the 25 point table and once on the 10 point table, or you could roll four times on the 10 point table.

Unfortunately, with 44 points, you'd have 9 points wasted, which is the most you could possibly have. (As opposed to 24 in the old system.)

Milo

[Zombie]

Milo, i'd like to know what you think of my version, and if you don't like it, could you tell me exactly what it is that you don't like about it, and that can't be solved with either of the two proposed amendments?

[Skummy]

I like this system as well. Under Scrutiny may take on a whole new importance if the Secret Weapons are released. If I recall correctly, Under Scrutiny prohibits the use of players with these weapons.

[Milo]

I got some feedback from Chet on some ways to revise the handicap table, so expect a second draft soon.

Soon sounds good!

It's up now -- I replaced the old version, so you can see the second draft of the tables by following the link I posted earlier.

I revised a lot of the results, and intended to post a full list of updates here, but TBB went down while I was composing it and I don't have time now.

Milo