New skills: block and knock down

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:04 pm

I disagree. I know I for one wouldn't try to make my linemen have both skills. I'd do a real world solution and have offensive and defensive linemen.

Shasta McNasty · Post by **Shasta McNasty** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 2:07 am

Got to go with Marcus on this one, fellas. Splitting Block would most likely result in using teh first two skills to get what is currently one, exacerbating teh very problem Zombie was seeking to avoid.
As to levels of skills, same problem. In order to keep up with teh league, players would have to waste multiple advances on teh same skill. If split/ level based skills come in, then to avoid unbalancing teh game, you would have to revise teh Star Player Points system.
Why revise teh system u ask? Because a high movement, high agility team will almost always advance its players faster than a Strength team. The faster advances for teh agility team would soon make there postion players BETTER in a blocking situation than say, teh Blitzers on a strength team. This negates teh advantage of playing a strength team in teh first place, IMHO.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 2:16 am

Just curious there Shasta, I have read a few of your posts and I was just wondering if there was a reason why you can't spell THE?

Anyway, back to the topic, not keen on splitting block or dodge, but have no problems with having more new skills (as long as they work).

Shasta McNasty · Post by **Shasta McNasty** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 2:26 am

lol Torg... running joke from an FPS game I play called Urban Terror. TEH is teh spelling used by everyone on teh forums for UrT, so that is how I always type it

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 2:37 am

OK, glad you filled us in on that, people around here might have started thinking you were dysleksic (probably spelled that wrong).

(oh well, I guess Grumble's not the only one who can't spell around here)

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:05 am

Marcus wrote:Splitting it between useable when blocking to useable when blocked is a bizarre idea to me. I reject the idea that it will mean we'll see "other skills more often". On the contrary I think we'd see other things less as it would mean that linemen would have 2 basic skills to get other than just one. Everyone would take block and knockdown first of all (cf: block and tackle as a standard lineman choice for 2 skills) and we'd rarely get past those skills at all.

Marcus, i really don't think this would happen as each skill taken together wouldn't be that powerful. Other skills would become just as good, e.g. strip ball, tackle, pro, etc.

Marcus wrote:Restrict access to block then everybody gets something else as their generic lineman skill.

Again, i don't think so. The problem with block is that it's so overpowered that taking anything else is downright stupid. No other skill can say the same. You'd really see more variety if this were to happen. The proof of that is that right now, only block causes a problem. You don't see any other general skill that's always taken among the first two skills for every player.

Oh and for the record, i'm against multi-level skills. I just want block (and maybe dodge, i haven't decided yet) split, nothing more.

Rozman · Post by **Rozman** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 5:07 am

I'd have to agree with Marcus on this one.

Block and Dodge are immensely popular because they keep your players upright. This keeps you from turning over during your turn, and keeps your player available without blowing 3 pts of movement and having to blitz in order to throw a block (if they're not hurt.)

Both of these expand your options during your current/next turn.

IMHO this is much more important than any other ability in the game.

If your player was not knocked down by your opponent, you still exert a tackle zone, can throw a block, can dodge out and go someplace else, etc.

If your player doesn't fall down on the block you threw, you can move other players to account for what happened (i.e. go for the ball you just knocked loose, pop through the hole you opened, or surround the guy you just failed to knock down.)

If they were split up, I would go for as many of those seperate skills as possible. Skills that keep you on your feet are just much too important to ignore. This may be at the expense of a number of very useful skills, but in the long run, I think they keep your team more competetive, not to mention, less dead

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 5:40 am

Well, i personally wouldn't take the divided skills all that much. Even the current block and dodge, powerful as they are, i don't find are the best thing to take as a first skill. Half of my line-elves, and most of my general-access-only linemen, take neither of those on their first skill.

I find it much more important to have a player with kick than one more player with block. It's also more important to have two players with dirty player than two more block, and the same goes for strip ball and tackle. Second skill, i'll take block.

If it were divided in two, i doubt any of my linemen would have both skills for their first two skills, or even among their first three for that matter.

And i remain convince that more people would start doing like i do and give something different for their player as their first skill, since block, with half the power it has now, would be surpassed by other skills, and surpassed especially by greater diversity.

And if unlike me you really think that even divided in two, block would still be the most powerful general skill, this shows how broken it is now and how crucial it is to do something about it.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 10:46 am

Zombie wrote: Even the current block and dodge, powerful as they are, i don't find are the best thing to take as a first skill. Half of my line-elves, and most of my general-access-only linemen, take neither of those on their first skill.

I find it much more important to have a player with kick than one more player with block. It's also more important to have two players with dirty player than two more block, and the same goes for strip ball and tackle. Second skill, i'll take block.

If the above is the case, then how can Block be broken? You seem to be putting forth pretty good arguments against splitting it. If it was an automatic first skill for all lineman then you'd have a stronger case. As it stands, there's plenty of scope and good reasons (some of which you've outlined above) to take other skills first.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:59 am

Took the words out of my mouth. If it's a no brainer - why take something different? If it's still so powerful - why not take both after splitting?

I, for one, don't take it as the absolute first skill. There's usually 3 or 4 line-types on my team who are geared towards doing something else that doesnt' involve hitting or getting hit.

It sounds to me like you're simply bored of playing against people who have lots of block. I recommend taking a team without block, just to prove a point.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 9:33 pm

The reason you wouldn't take both after the split is because most linemen don't get 2 skills for a loooong time. With this rule you would need to have different squads for different jobs. Just like in the real game.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 9:55 pm

I would still take both, linemen are for getting hit and then hitting other linemen whilst assiting each other. I see no point or benefit in splitting block.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 9:58 pm

After a little thought, this is my more thought-over take on the subject: the idea of splitting those skills is good - forcing more diverse skill choices. But now that I've thought about it, I just like dual-nature skills more. Just to keep the players from being strictly confined to the niche their coach intended them to fill. I wouldn't scream if such splits were made, but I simply feel the current situation contributes to an overall more enjoyable BB experience more than divided skills would.

Skill diversity, in turn, should be pursued with improved SP-roll tables, which create several different skill-choice scenarios. I'm hoping that the BBRC will decide something on them in this review - at least they've been on "The List"...

Shasta McNasty wrote:lol Torg... running joke from an FPS game I play called Urban Terror. TEH is teh spelling used by everyone on teh forums for UrT, so that is how I always type it

Sorry Shasta, but somehow at least I seem to skip over your posts as soon as I confront the first "teh" in them. A pity as you're probably contributing really good posts. It's just that I and many others are really prejudiced against posts and e-mails that are deliberately written with bad grammar.
Perhaps an Urban Terror insider joke is more suited to appropriate UrT forums? We all know now that you play it, so my friendly suggestion for you would be to start writing normally before people start ignoring you, which in turn would be a shame

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:52 pm

Deathwing wrote:If the above is the case, then how can Block be broken? You seem to be putting forth pretty good arguments against splitting it. If it was an automatic first skill for all lineman then you'd have a stronger case. As it stands, there's plenty of scope and good reasons (some of which you've outlined above) to take other skills first.

Because even when it's not taken as a first skill with a coach who likes to show more imagination, it's an automatic sesond skill. Nothing should be automatic. Less automatic skills = more diversity = more fun.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 12:20 am

But you've got to have some 'run-of mill' bodies in a team. By the time you've got 2 skills on your linemen, you're going to have more increases on your position players. As Pariah said, that quite a way down the road. Stat increases and doubles come up often enough to create diversity throughout a team that's getting to the 2 skilled linemen point.

I'd say that Accurate is far and away the most popular first skill choice for Throwers. Is there a similar problem there?

If coaches want to sacrifice durability for diversity then the option exists.
But Linemen are just that. Linemen. If they were particularly good at other roles then they would be position players in the first place.