New skaven WA

[MickeX]

As I see it, the big problem with current WA isn't that it's too negative. It is, but the worst thing is that forcing a player to go first disturbs the finest gameplay mechanism of Blood Bowl - to choose in which order to activate your players.

For me, that's a good enough reason never to use players with WA, and I prefer if I won't have to play against them either. Disgracing the game with setting up simple WA-traps would feel really wrong: why would that Gutter Runner not make that simple run for a TD just because my players are harassing that Rat Ogre!?

Of course, you could make up similar situations even without the WA-rule, but it just feels extra wrong. And in some situations it gets really absurd - like the rational move to go for the Rat Ogre trap instead of taking some chances to blitz that GR who's actually holding the ball...

Maybe they ought to rephrase WA to "Roll 2+ or skip your whole turn" - that way it would be more obvious how strange this rule is

Micke

[franck_le_grand]

I agree that WA is bad, and I never use players with WA, but...

Marcus:

1) Must take first action.

2) Must block/blitz opponent if standing on his tackle zone.

3) Cannot receive assists when blocking or fouling.

And he suggested that you removed #2. By these rullings, a WA player can do nothing at all in a turn.
And furthermore, he will almost always stand in front of a ST3 player, which he can beat up.

Tim:
When a ST 5 player with frenzy (mino) and some other nasty skills, is standing in the line of scrimmage not doing a thing, would you let him stand alone??? No you would have, say 2-3 players around him.
So you "loose" those players as they are too bussy trying to beat down the WA player, caus if you don't he will be free to move around.
This of course is not true if you have an ogre in the LoS, but you wont let the ogre stand alone by himself in the LoS, would you??

I don't have any suggestions for how to change WA but I'll be back....

[manusate]

Marcus:

manusate wrote:

1) Must take first action.

2) Must block/blitz opponent if standing on his tackle zone.

3) Cannot receive assists when blocking or fouling.



And he suggested that you removed #2. By these rullings, a WA player can do nothing at all in a turn.
And furthermore, he will almost always stand in front of a ST3 player, which he can beat up.

I´m afraid I didn´t understand...

[franck_le_grand]

I´m afraid I didn´t understand...

It was ment to marcus as a reply of what he wrote, and I used a quote from you.

Marcus wrote that you were forced to do something with a WA player, but according to your suggestion, you aint, and that's what I think is wrong with your suggestion.

[Marcus]

Franck: I was saying I like the idea of making the forced move an optional one. The start of turn forced move is everything wrong with the current rule IMO.

[franck_le_grand]

Ok, just got it wrong.
And I agree with you about the forced move is what makes the rule bad, but I would like to see a whole new WA rule. Then I might consider bying a WA player.

I'll think of something for tomorrow and post it. I got something going on in my thoughts about a new rule for WA...

[Joaquim]

I think I must study this harder.... but I guess that WAs now can be a efficient player in deep defense... and if some coachs complain about having a player in the pitch just to wait if, and hope that, he can do something usefull.... well, I'm a goblin coach - all my players are like that!!!!

Besides that, I had a weird ideia.... making wild animals really wild... something in this line:

If a WA rolls a 1, or is knock down, roll a d6, on 1 or 2 he will become out of control, and stay so until the end of the drive. A Out of Control WA will stop being part of a team - he will have his own turn, after his coach's turn. In his turn he will block/Blitz the nearest player (be it friend or foe), if tied his former coach may choose....
And OoC WA should have his ST increased by +1....

OK, ok... I know this wouldn't work... but it should be funny!!!

[plasmoid]

I recently read the Resurrection Tournament description in BBMag 4.
In it, it is described that a skaven coach had to let has Rat Ogre stay prone most of the match, just to avoid it attacking a Kroxigor.

To me, this is an indication that Wild Animal is too much!

[Grumbledook]

Thats a 1 die block, i might take that chance sometimes.

[franck_le_grand]

Ok here's my suggestion to a whole new WA skill:

A WA player must take an action each and every turn. If the coach of the WA player forgets at the end of his turn, he may be called for an illegal procedure and will have to use up one re-roll. If he doesn't have one, the opposing coach gets one (I know this is not likely to happen, but maybe sometimes...).

In addition if the WA player start his turn standing next to a opposing player he will block him, and may not move away before. If the WA player was lying down, you may stand him up, and this is considered as a move action.
The WA player do not gain any benefit from assist but any opposing player can assist against the WA player.

If the WA player is beaten down and not injured he will follow the player who did it and go for the block against this player as soon as possible, but may choose not to make a blitz. The WA player will follow the person until he beats him down, or he gets beaten down by another player.

If a turnover takes place before the WA player has done anything nothing happens, and no re-rolls are handed out.

This is my suggestion, and please be nice, I just lost 1-2 and 0-4 cas, in my league final with my wood elf team, against a vampire team.

[Joaquim]

franck_le_grand:

I think the worst thing with your sugestion (not mention mine...) it's it is a little too complex, and "they" want to keep BB simple, for dumbies....

just don't ask me why they want to keep BB complexity at dumbie level... just think how many rules I "discover" in these foruns..!!...

Someday someone will come with a good and simple way of representing the Wild character... until then, I think "we" must live with this....

[franck_le_grand]

I know, I know...
I just hate the WA skill and I would never take a WA player for my team.
And BTW the WA skill is one of the most complex skills in the rules...

Le Grand

[Munkey]

I think the idea is that rules should be kept simple so that they don't get forgotton in the game, each rule on it's own is not too complicated but if there a lot of detailed rules they get forgotten in the heat of a game.

If i'm remembering it right I remember someone talking about rules passing the 'beer test', that is can you remember them after a pint?

I deliberately used the word detailed rather than complex above because I do not think GW have a problem with complexity as much as with overly detailed rules.

Remember rules do not have to be detailed to allow strategic play, just look at chess, simple rules but very complex strategy, this makes for a more exiting game as you can concentrate on what you want to do rather than worrying about rules lawyering all the time.

Sorry if that all sounded a bit negative, it's not intended that way. I have been following the thread and I have been converted by the discussions, I think franck and marcus are right, the move first is the problem with the rule.

I think the first part of franck's rule is great and may just be the answer we are looking for in our league (or the skaven players anyway ), If we ensure that the WA must move at somepoint during the turn and is restricted by the other rules then the player has more freedom to make more important actions first before coming back to the WA; if its a TO first then so be it [shrugs].

Apologies for the long post, just my thoughts.