The kick skill

[gandresch]

Hi,

i like the idea of rerolling the d8 or the d6 instead of Kick as it is now.
2 skills are unneccessary, i think, it's just too weak then.
We haven't tested that yet, but i will suggest it for our new season.

Greetz,
gan

[elfman]

It would need to be decided whether it was an addition to the skill already there, or part of a choice - either select half distance OR reroll the directional dice.

We are testing this one in our local league, I will write something about how it workes when my team will get kicker.

[Bludbowler]

Leave the Kick skill as it is for kickoffs, but add the ability to punt the ball during a drive to any target square on the pitch. If the kicker passes an agility roll, it's accurate and scatters 1D6, but if he fails the agility roll it scatters 2D6.

[mage75]

I like the idea of adding the OR choice to the existing skill. None of my current teams have kick at the moment, and it's one of the last skills I take. To create a second kick related skill will simply add another skill that I won't take. Pointless to me, and I am fairly sure no-one in my league would see a secondary kick skill as worthwhile.

[Dain]

I really like this new version as well. Being able to reroll either D6 or D8 is very good and closer to the bloodbowl core rules, imo. If we have to vote, i would give mine to this one, for sure.

Besides that, i'm surprised that the Kick skill is the only one which is not an in-game skill. The only use is for the kick-off.


In aussie football, players are able to kick the ball to another player. It's like a throw, but with the foot
Why not just allowing the kicker to be able to kick the ball during the game, like the Hail mary Pass skill, anywhere in the field. The ball will bounce the same (3 times) but 2 squares each time, because of the strength of the kick.
It's not a very new rule, just a combination of some which already exist

[tenwit]

There are other not in-game skills. Kick-Off Return, Regeneration and Nurgle's Rot spring to mind.

[napking]

I don't really see the need for adding a re-roll to the kick rules either thematically or ludologically.

Thematically, the player is trained and practiced in kicking the ball and hence his kick won't wobble in the air as much as any other player trying the same. The ball will still dip, dive, wobble and be pushed around in the air before it lands on the pitch for the first time. In no way does the kicker control the direction the ball 'scatters' in the air, he just reduces the distance it diverts from his optimal location.

In game terms, Kick is already strong at what it does. It reduces the square grid of possible ending locations from 7x7 to 4x4 and 90% of the time (estimate) will be within a 3x3 grid.

I do like the idea of a Punt skill to get the ball out of an area and would like to see how it develops. First inclination is that it can't use the Quick or Short Pass ranges (inverse of TTM), scatters a lot (2-3 times) and does not cause a turnover. BUT, what if the roll fails? does it just scatter more? ? ? Or would be automatically considered a 'fumbled' kick?

[Joemanji]

See this thread on kicking:

viewtopic.php?t=23935&

[Smurf]

A simple resolution would be to use the throw in template from the ball's point to determine the scatter.

[stashman]

I would like the kick to be hanging in the air and it lands when the turn is finished for the reciever on a 4+.

To good or just to weird?

Or when entering the square with the ball, it doesn't have to be picked up but instead kicked away d6 squares with throw in template to randomise scatter.

[mattgslater]

A simple resolution would be to use the throw in template from the ball's point to determine the scatter.

Unfortunately, it would be less fun and less realistic than the current Kick skill, with very similar applications. I thought about it too, but it would mean the ball always moves along 3 diagonal lines, which seems very strange to me.

[Krennick]

Hi, I'm new and that. So, let's talk about kick.

Three sides to the argument: 1) Realism 2) game balance 3) playability

Someone mentioned realism as a consideration and my immediate thought was - well the existing system isn't particularly realistic, so why should realism be a concern? While BB is of course not the same as American football, the ball does have a similar shape and thus would obey the laws of physics in a similar way with similar behaviours. While it's strictly true that this shape of ball hitting the ground can jump suddenly and unexpectedly in seemingly any direction that's only half the truth. When it's moving downfield with a lot of inertia it does not really ever do a 180 and jump back the way it came. Perfect realism is of course unattainable, but there is definitely an argument for using a throw-in template when the ball is moving at speed and a scatter template when the ball is not moving at speed.

Another way of expressing the same principle is to use the scatter template always but modify the amount of spaces the ball travel based on whether it is a continuation of the pre-impact movement direction or if it changes direction slightly or radically.

With this non-round ball there are two considerations when deciding where it finally ends up: The accuracy of the kick which gives the initial impact and where the ball goes from the initial impact before it comes to rest. I think it reasonable for any skill on the kicker to only affect the accuracy of the kick prior to initial impact.

However, in the existing system I find there is too much variance in the accuracy of the kick, too little variance in the post-initial-impact movement and no consideration of plain old inertia. The problems in the system are evident in how large the area of the pitch is that is within 6 squares of the initial impact yet has 0% chance of having the ball land in it.

My initial proposal is an attempt to merge the needs of realism and game balance (making the kick skill powerful, but not overpowered). I suspect it will have too many die rolls and be too complicated and as a result can be considered to violate the principle of playability, but it's a suggestion from which something may be gleaned useful.

New kick sequence:
1) Kick accuracy
2) Initial bounce
3) Final bounce

Kick Accuracy
Pick target square. Roll d6 -2 to determine how far off target square we are initially. Roll d6 - 5 if the kicker has kick skill. If we are at all off target, roll scatter to determine in which direction we are off target. Move the ball the number of squares in that direction that is determined by the (modified) d6 roll. Kick accuracy step produces an initial impact.

Reasoning: Even the most incompetent kicker sometimes hits the target. The current system guarantees that the ball will never have initial impact in the targeted square unless the kicker has kick skill and then the chance is still small. Mostly the ball should hit or be close to target, even with untrained kickers. With trained kickers it should always be close and never far. might even go so far as to skip the kick accuracy step if you have kick skill. Another way of doing this could be (d8 - 1)/2 for non-kick and (d8 -5)/2 for kick. So, for no kick I want the ball to be accurate to within maximum 4 squares and often be on target. For kick I want the ball to be accurate to within 1 square - maximum 2 - and for it to be on target most of the time.

Initial bounce:
Determine direction of travel from kicker to initial impact - associate direction of travel with a single direction on the scatter template. Roll scatter. If scattering in the direction of travel move 3 squares. If 45 degrees off direction of travel move 2 squares. If 90 or 135 degrees off direction of travel move 1 square. If 180 degrees off direction of travel bounce back into this square. Initial bounce step produces a second impact.

Final bounce:
Scatter 1 square using the scatter template. Final bounce produces a resting place.

Catch possible on initial impact, second impact and resting place.

This initial bounce step presupposed that the ball is moving along at pretty much the same speed every time. While I don't think this can really be fixed to account for the ball actually moving at different speeds, I would make the exceptions that a high kick (on the kick off table) should have a different initial bounce. There is no sideways movement, but it is coming down at great speed, so scattering two squares in one direction given by the scatter template (followed by the one square final bounce) seems reasonable.

All of this is of course... too complicated. Any good ideas for compromises?

[Smurf]

After a recent match... I'm happy with the Kick Skill, maybe it should be shunted to a Passing Skill?

[mattgslater]

It's an excellent skill. I think if you houserule an additional P skill that works in conjunction that would be a cool idea.

[plasmoid]

How about Up-and-Under:

If this player is set up in a leagal kicking position, and the Kick skill on another player is not used for the kick-off, then the ball is kicked high. On the first offense turn after the kick-off, any player holding the ball will have his MA reduced to 0 for that turn only.

Cheers
Martin