Block, Guard & Dodge modifications

[Geoff Watson]

potential nightmare

Guard, LRB5
A player with this skill may assist an offensive or defensive block even if he is in another player's tackle zone. This skill may not be used to assist a foul.

Guard, suggested nightmare
A player with this skill may assist an offensive or defensive block even if he is in a single opposing player's tackle zone. This skill may not be used to assist a foul.

That makes Guard useless, as the standard way to give an assist is to be in a single opposing player's tackle zone (ie the player blocking or being blocked).

Geoff.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
IMO - if you split block, you also weaken guard and dodge - because block guard and blodge are such good combos.
So that would be enough for me.

Joemanji said:
>Here: viewtopic.php?t=3620

Geeez - I marvel at some of the nonsense directed at Zombie in this thread!
I'd be happy to at least try the split.
I think it would be good for the game.

IMO, if people still take block after the split, that just goes to show that the old one was stupidly good.
If people spend their 2 first skill picks on taking "the old block" - let them. Some no doubt will. But IMO, it would be a waste in most cases.
Others will take either block skill on their first skill pick. Good, IMO - at least they'll be less powerful.
Finally, some of the more adventurous coaches will take less block (perhaps some of them already did). Those coaches will be rewarded, because now other skills compete better with block.
Lovely.
.....will never happen

Cheers
Martin

[Snew]

Zombie was right in a way but he was a Bat and couldn't hold a civil arguement. His personality prevented anyone from REALLY agreeing with him.

Now let's get rid of Block.

[Joemanji]

Guard

A number of alternatives came up for this and, to be honest, none were considered vastly superior to the others. The options included:
- a player with Guard cancels other (opposing) players with Guard in their tackle zones, and vice versa (simplest)
- Guard can only be used once in your turn and once in the opponent's turn (better, but may be hard to track the use of)
- Guard ignores the first enemy tackle zone when calculating assists (i.e. normally the presence of 1 opposing player's TZ prevents the assist, in the case of Guard it would require 2 opposing player's TZ to prevent the assist (probably the best in terms of fairness, but a potential nightmare to explain in writing)

As I said before, I'm not sure Guard is that good as a skill in itself, perhaps it just combines too well with Block and high ST players.

But for the sake of discussion, if it were deemed to need a slight nerf, why not achieve that in the same way as has currently been done with Block and Dodge? I.e. introducing a counter skill (or skills), such as Wrestle or Tackle. An example might be "Distract", which could cancel one or all of the Guard assists in your player's tackle zone. It could perhaps be an agility skill so as to appear more often on Elf teams and less on teams with ready access to Guard such as Dwarfs. Or it could simply cancel one (but only one) assist of any kind.

Another alternative change to Guard would be to say that a player could only use it if he has yet to move that turn. Once he has moved he becomes too involved in what he is doing to help out his mates. This makes the skill feel more like its name in that there would be some real "guarding" going on. Plus it becomes slightly more tactical in its use, and might slow down the rolling walls of four of five players with Guard (which is really what people are complaining about isn't it?).

Just some thoughts.

[Joemanji]

I know I'm a little late on that debate but what about making block a S skill? Dodge is not a G skill, why should block? It would also reduce the number of dreaded dodgers in all teams.

Although if that would be done, there would be a need to look at the complete game balance since BG and Mummies would now have access to block, but is that not the point?

Just thinking out lound here.

Hi dude. You'll be happy with your little Goblin when you open our game file. What a trooper! But the problem to many people is Block in conjuction with ST skills such as Guard and Mighty Blow. Making Block a ST skill would be the absolute worst thing to do, as it would make these players even better, as they'd be the only ones who could take Block!

I'd be happy to at least try the split.
I think it would be good for the game.

IMO, if people still take block after the split, that just goes to show that the old one was stupidly good.
If people spend their 2 first skill picks on taking "the old block" - let them. Some no doubt will. But IMO, it would be a waste in most cases.
Others will take either block skill on their first skill pick. Good, IMO - at least they'll be less powerful.
Finally, some of the more adventurous coaches will take less block (perhaps some of them already did). Those coaches will be rewarded, because now other skills compete better with block.
Lovely.
.....will never happen

Hi Martin. Sounds lovely, doesn't it? It seems slightly strange to me that this idea has been around for longer than TBB, but that it has never recieved serious discussion. Some of the ideas that nearly made it through PBBL seem ridiculous in comparison (don't say anything Simon! ).

[Joemanji]

I've floated the idea of a small PBeM tourney to get a feel for the concept of splitting Block into two skills. Here: viewtopic.php?t=23456

[Xeterog]

ust don't see the need to change the one basic skill in the game. It does one thing...the effect on the block dice, unlike some other, powerful, skills like doge.

If I throw a 2db defenders Choice, do get to use my Block skill if my opponent picks POW/Skull? I threw the block, but my opponent choose the dice.

Either way (sack or block) that you'd give dwarven blockers would weaken the dwarven game considerably. (it's my favorite team, so I tend to think of changes in how it would affect them). Either they lose their hitting power (being able to reliably throw 1db's against blockless players helps a bundle) or they lose their ability to stay standing (MA 4 is a pain especially when you are prone).

[Dark Lord (retired)]

IN Elfball they went with the solution of having a Might stat and Tackle stat...thus sidestepping the problem.

It works oh so well, and is one of the things that when JJ was taking BB "down to the skeleton" and building up from scratch he should have looked at.

Remember when Blood Bowl did this? IMO it's just common sense to either separate the skills, tier the Block skill, or separate the ability into two abilities.

Why this change has never come I do not know. IMO it's one of those things that sticks out like a rusty nail in this game. Very easy to fix, already been done in previous editions and other games so results can be easily predicted so what's the hold up?

[Darkson]

Either way (sack or block) that you'd give dwarven blockers would weaken the dwarven game considerably.

Simple fix - give them Block and Sack and remove Tackle.

Some of the ideas that nearly made it through PBBL seem ridiculous in comparison (don't say anything Simon! ).

Never crossed my mind.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

Either way (sack or block) that you'd give dwarven blockers would weaken the dwarven game considerably.

Simple fix - give them Block and Sack and remove Tackle.

That sounds good.

[Joemanji]

IN Elfball they went with the solution of having a Might stat and Tackle stat...thus sidestepping the problem.

It works oh so well, and is one of the things that when JJ was taking BB "down to the skeleton" and building up from scratch he should have looked at.

Remember when Blood Bowl did this? IMO it's just common sense to either separate the skills, tier the Block skill, or separate the ability into two abilities.

Why this change has never come I do not know. IMO it's one of those things that sticks out like a rusty nail in this game. Very easy to fix, already been done in previous editions and other games so results can be easily predicted so what's the hold up?

I'm not sure there is a need to split the ST & AG stats for basic teams. I think that works ok. But I sometimes think ST and AG upgrades are too powerful, and can tip the scales a little too far. I'd like to see tested Improvement rolls that gave players +1 ST for either throwing or taking blocks, or +1 AG for either dodges, throwing or pickups+catches. Essentially Tackle, Might, Agility, Cool and TS without actually having 7 characteristics on the statline. I think the starting teams work pretty well and always have done. It is the campaign rules that cause all the problems. Take PBBL for example. How many of the rules pertinant to starting teams were actually changed?

[Joemanji]

Either way (sack or block) that you'd give dwarven blockers would weaken the dwarven game considerably.

Simple fix - give them Block and Sack and remove Tackle.

Wow, that really, really works.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

Well I wasn't advocating only that split...just any split.
Basically using it as an example to say, "Hey its not a new concept. It's been done and it works...its even been done in Blood Bowl before."

I don't want 7 or 8 stats either. But a Block/Sack type split has already been shown to work and I support it.

By the way, you are completely right that the campaign rules are the broken rules. Which is why I dislike the attempts to balance them. It's like trying to balance a boulder and a feather on a see-saw. You either smash the boulder down into one pebble or load on mounds and mounds of feathers and try against all hope to keep them from falling off and blowing away.

The rules makes went with the feathers.

[reservoirelves]

I think it is unlikely that Block will ever get changed, but you might be able to get Wrestle to do a better job of countering block.

For example, you could add the following to Wrestle.

Wrestle
... When this player is the target of a block, he may remove a single die that has the both down result.

A 2d block against this player would result in an attacker down 1 in 12 times if they have block.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

That's sounds a little useless to me. 1 in 12 blocks?

And what about 1 die blocks? How do you remove the only die?