Surrounded by Boneheads (Ogre Team Solution

Mad Banker · Post by **Mad Banker** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:05 pm

ianwilliams wrote:Real world cost of the minis should have nothing to do with their effectiveness.

Someone tell this to GW...

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 4:27 pm

well, if the team isn't competitive, just don't buy it. i completely agree that the cost shouldn't be in any way related to the effectiveness of the team...

leblanc13 · Post by **leblanc13** » Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:44 am

I thought that the object of a company was to make money!

If GW wants to sell minis then they should make them marketable. The way they have done this is in the past is to make the miniatures useful to the game system they were designed for. Since games workshop has made multipart ogre models and has many combinations that can be made from the ogre parts I must summize that they had intended to sell them as a team as well as individual models. The new minotaur has not been marketed in the same way. It is a fixed model with no interchangable parts. The intention is clear to me that GW wants to sell the ogres as a team in order to make more money. How is their intention to make money any different from my need to get something useful for the money I spend?

While they will sell individual ogres for most of the teams that can use them. People are not likely to spend $200+ dollars on a team if it is not meant to be competative especially when all other teams average a cost of approximately $45 dollars.

My main motive was to offer a suggestion to make the ogre team competative, NOT unbeatable. My reason to do this was not soley based on cost. If you had read my previous posts, you would have seen that. In fact, I don't own the ogre team and based on the way the team currently plays, I can't see spending $200 on the team to try them out. I currently have two of the ogre models which I use on my Chaos and Human teams though and have found them to be worth less than the 120,000gcs my team has spent to acquire them.

slackman · Post by **slackman** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:09 am

not to try and direct this discussion back to the topic or anything, but i really think reducing the cost of rrs and adding big guy back to the ogres might be a step towards balancing them. if they cant use rrs anymore, the +ag ogres w/ sure hands arent going to be the standard ballcarriers they are now. i really see this team's purpose as relying on ttms on offense, and brutally obliterating the competion on defense. eliminating rrs for the ogres would allow this while still making them unpredictable. but i dont know if this was already thought of and found to be too harsh, necessitating the removal of the big guy trait.

MixX · Post by **MixX** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:40 pm

if you spend 200 $ on an ogre team, you have gotten something useful for your money. You may not win (very often) with them, but you'll have fun. I hope. If it's absolutely necessary for you to have all the teams balanced, create you own house rules for it among the people you play with. If you need to win to have fun (not saying you're that kind of player, mind!), play with elves!

If you're determined to play Ogres, well, just accept that they are a wacky team too stupid and unskilled to win often...

Following your logic (and warping it to my own purpose, of course..

), if I pay a pro-painter, say, 100 $ to paint my team, should they all get + 1 str so that I get something for my money?? Nah, doesn't sound right.. I realize it's not exactly the same thing, but comparing real-life costs to game effectiveness is just... wrong. And please, please, Blood Bowl, never suffer from "Warhammaritis", where each race gets a boost every now and then when sales need to be better for that particular race, or whatever the strategy behind the Warhammer rules are...

My point, if you really want one (spoilsport!) is that like others here, I don't think Ogres should be a reliable, able race. Their playing style is just too... boring.. for that!

And if I insulted someone, well, sorry. And please don't take anything personal, I'm not writing this at SOMEONE, only at the opinions they express.

Oh, and I think BadMrMojo was joking, I dunno, but that's the way I read it..

cheers all, and may you never lose another player (unless you're playing against me

)

MixX

leblanc13 · Post by **leblanc13** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:55 am

I would be all for keeping the big guy descriptor on the ogres. That is fine by me, however I still think that they need the general skill access to be effective.

My original idea was to allow them to use useful general skills while being hampered in some other form.

My idea to have them competative was not solely based on the cost of the team. I wish everyone read my original posts and did not harp on the one that mentioned cost. FORGET I ever posted the cost factor.

I feel that the ogre team would be better off having general skills and fixing some other aspect of the team if it HAD to be done. I personally don't think that they need to be fixed.

Also, I originally didn't see anything wrong with the list as is right now. You are not going to be able to field more than 5 or 6 ogres to start with anyway. Goblins are going to be dying left and right and the ogres will be ganged up on by everyone on the opposing team and fouled out of action.

I have a hard time seeing problems with this team in it's current experimental form. You would have to play probably 20+ games with this team before you could field a full team of ogres with rerolls anyway.

Why not ban them from open league play if you want prevent them from getting too good.

Most teams will surpass them overtime anyway as the ogres will die and need to be replaced, goblins will suffer many casualties from game to game, and the cost of replacement players and rerolls during the season is going to stunt the growth of this team.

I can't see this team as that big of a problem.

Now if you wanted to slap the big guy descriptor on them and remove their access to rerolls, that would be okay as that would have a similar if not harsher impact than my original suggestion.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:51 am

leblanc13 wrote:Also, I originally didn't see anything wrong with the list as is right now. You are not going to be able to field more than 5 or 6 ogres to start with anyway. Goblins are going to be dying left and right and the ogres will be ganged up on by everyone on the opposing team and fouled out of action.

Unfortunately leblanc13 this is not the experience other leagues are seeing.

My leagues and other quickly see the Ogres become ball handlers and the Goblin stay out of TZs to get hit. When I play Ogres ... most of my opponents spend all their effort to get just one 2 dice block against one of my Ogres and then blitz one other player. The right coach to play an Ogre team and show how to abuse it is either an experienced Halfling or Goblin coach ... give the current experimental Ogre to to one of those coaches and they will clean up a league ... I have no doubts about this.

Get 7 Ogres and 6 Goblins on a team and you can field the 3-4-4 Defense from h*ll. Put Diving Tackle on the 4 Goblins and you have an Elf/Skaven Defense that is simply scary. On the front line, 2 Ogres get Block and the middle gets Guard giving you ST 6 LOS sides. The wing Ogres get Block and Break Tackle. Midfield Ogres pick up Kick and Sure Hands. Trust me ... Bonehead or not ... this is a team for which there are few to no good answers to play against.

Galak

Mirascael · Post by **Mirascael** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:27 pm

Iceblanc, it would appear that an overwhelming majority, including many experienced coaches, sees a problem with general access to Big Guys. Similar results on a fumbbl-thread suggesting the denial of general access to big guys in the experimental league (together with making Pro a skill again).
Now either these people are all wrong and have no idea what they are talking about although they have played hundreds of games, or their considerations do contain some truth. The truth, IMHO, is that it is simply annoying that the powergamer-device labeled Big Guy can dominate a match far too easily and make for a worse game right now.
I began to jeopardize the power of Big Guys after I've read several comments on tbb-com from players who said that their leagues had abolished Big Guys altogether and were far better of with it. About 200 games later, I now think they are absolutely right, games without Big Guys are indeed far more enjoyable and exciting.
Since it is impossible to get rid of Big Guys altogether (because of fluff and financial reasons), they should be fixed at least insofar that they become a choice rather than a no-brainer. They'd be strong enough even without general access.

MixX · Post by **MixX** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:59 pm

Mirascael wrote:Iceblanc, it would appear that an overwhelming majority, including many experienced coaches, sees a problem with general access to Big Guys. Similar results on a fumbbl-thread suggesting the denial of general access to big guys in the experimental league (together with making Pro a skill again).
Now either these people are all wrong and have no idea what they are talking about although they have played hundreds of games, or their considerations do contain some truth. The truth, IMHO, is that it is simply annoying that the powergamer-device labeled Big Guy can dominate a match far too easily and make for a worse game right now.
I began to jeopardize the power of Big Guys after I've read several comments on tbb-com from players who said that their leagues had abolished Big Guys altogether and were far better of with it. About 200 games later, I now think they are absolutely right, games without Big Guys are indeed far more enjoyable and exciting.
Since it is impossible to get rid of Big Guys altogether (because of fluff and financial reasons), they should be fixed at least insofar that they become a choice rather than a no-brainer. They'd be strong enough even without general access.

you're the man! agree 100 %

leblanc13 · Post by **leblanc13** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:31 pm

I give up!

I still disagree with most of the reasoning behind the change, but it seems that my arguments hold no sway over anyone here so I relent.

I hope that removal of general skills does not make the ogre team an unplayable team.

And to be honest, I don't have an ogre team. I have a friend that just forked over the money to buy one and after reading these posts he is a little upset over the money spent on a team that isn't going to be played by him anytime soon.

I would like to thank everyone for the honest, open discussion on the subject.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:09 pm

leblanc13 wrote:I hope that removal of general skills does not make the ogre team an unplayable team.

Using only normal skill rolls

Code: Select all

Tight 3-4-4  Set-up
xxx
xBG
xxx
xxx
xBG
Oxx
Sxx
Oxx
xBG
xxx
xxx
xBG
xxx

O - Ogre with Guard ... (doubles are used for Block)
S - Ogre with Guard ... (doubles are used for Stand Firm)
B - Ogres with Break Tackle (doubles are used for Kick, Pass, Sure Hands)
G - Goblins with Diving Tackle and Side Step

You'll still have a team that will demand respect on the pitch. Definitely not unplayable.

Galak

leblanc13 · Post by **leblanc13** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:55 am

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how things play out.

Like I said, I give up. I'm now resigned to the changes and hope that people that play get enough doubles to take general skills.

I probably won't purchase an ogre team unless I see more flexibility though.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:35 am

Galak, your pitch is only 13 squares wide!

I'm going to guess you meant to use the following-

Code: Select all

Tight 3-4-4  Set-up
xxx
xBG
xxx
xxx
xBG
xxx
Oxx
Sxx
Oxx
xxx
xBG
xxx
xxx
xBG
xxx

Mad Banker · Post by **Mad Banker** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:35 am

What really is important for me in this game is the fluff, and what does it say?
Big guys are tremendously strong and brutal players that, apart from certain exceptional individuals, lack finesse and wits...
So it seems plain wrong to me that "Block, strip ball, sure hands" ogres have become the rule rather than the exception.
After all, of all the big guy star players (the exceptional individuals mentioned earlier) only Morg has block...

leblanc13 · Post by **leblanc13** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:04 pm

Good point Mad Banker.

Like I said, the fight is taken out of me. I will reserve judgement until I see the results of the rule changes.

Talk Fantasy Football

Surrounded by Boneheads (Ogre Team Solution

How should the ogre team be made a more viable team?