Separate Chaos Teams

[Sixpack595]

I'd make the Marauders same as Norse linemen.

CHAOS
0-12 Marauder 50k 6 3 3 8 Ph,G -
0-4 Warrior 100k 5 4 3 9 Ph,G,St -
0-1 Ogre

[Joemanji]

In principle, that is a sweet idea!! I don't like your daemon stats, but the ability to incoporate daemons into the standard Chaos teams this way is neat.

Looking at WFB daemons, they are easy to banish from the mortal plane, not hard (as regen makes them). Much as some may decry the WFB comparison, some part of their character must be rooted there.

[Joemanji]

I'd prefer something along the lines of...

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BEASTMEN
0-12 Beastman  60k  6 3 3 8 Horns {G,S,Ph}
0-4  Ungor     70k  7 2 3 8 Horns, Dodge {G, A, Ph}
0-2  Bestigor  100k 6 3 3 9 Horns, Block {G, S, Ph}
0-1  Minotaur
Rerolls = 60k

CHAOS
0-12 Lineman        50k  6 3 3 8 - {G,Ph}
0-4  Chaos Warrior  100k 5 4 3 9 - {G,S,Ph}
0-1 Ogre / Troll / Minotaur
Rerolls = 60k

Special Rule : Either team may hire one daemon from the list below. In addition, a team may hire a second daemon in place of a positional player or big guy.*

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DAEMON
Bloodletter   100k 6 4 2 7 Frenzy, Tackle, Daemonic {G,S}
Daemonette    110k 7 3 4 7 Claw, Hypnotic Gaze, Daemonic {G,A}
Horror         90k 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Flux, Daemonic {G,A,Ph}
Plaguebearer  110k 5 4 1 8 Foul Appearence, Horns, Daemonic {G,S}

With the exception of Horrors, these daemons do not have access to physical abilities, as their forms are predominately fixed.

Daemonic (racial characteristic)
A daemon's grasp on the mortal plane can sometimes be ... elusive; particuarly if his material form is damaged. Roll a D6 every time the player is stunned. On a roll of 1 the player counts as being Knocked Out. Also, a Daemonic player will only recover from being KO'd on a 5 or a 6, rather than the normal 4, 5 or 6.

Flux (racial characteristic)
The Horror has no permanent physical form; rather, his body is in a constant state of change. A the start of each of his actions, the player should choose one physical ability. He will count as having this skill until the start of his next action. The Horror may not choose the same mutation in consecutive turns.



* Note : this deliberately favours the Beastman team, as it has no ST 4 players to start.

[David Bergkvist]

I'd make the Marauders same as Norse linemen.

But norse linemen are very good as linemen go. I fear that this could make the chaos team unbalanced.

[David Bergkvist]

I'd prefer something along the lines of...

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BEASTMEN
0-12 Beastman  60k  6 3 3 8 Horns {G,S,Ph}
0-4  Ungor     70k  7 2 3 8 Horns, Dodge {G, A, Ph}
0-2  Bestigor  100k 6 3 3 9 Horns, Block {G, S, Ph}
0-1  Minotaur
Rerolls = 60k

If you look at the new beastman models, ungors don't look faster or weaker than normal humans.

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CHAOS
0-12 Lineman        50k  6 3 3 8 - {G,Ph}
0-4  Chaos Warrior  100k 5 4 3 9 - {G,S,Ph}
0-1 Ogre / Troll / Minotaur

Special Rule : Either team may hire one daemon from the list below. In addition, a team may hire a second daemon in place of a positional player or big guy.*

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DAEMON
Bloodletter   100k 6 4 2 7 Frenzy, Tackle, Daemonic {G,S}
Daemonette    110k 7 3 4 7 Claw, Hypnotic Gaze, Daemonic {G,A}
Horror         90k 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Flux, Daemonic {G,A,Ph}
Plaguebearer  110k 5 4 1 8 Foul Appearence, Horns, Daemonic {G,S}

But this allows a chaos team to have both ST 4 and AG 4 players, which is against Galak's team building guidelines. And ST 4 allows the chaos team to have five ST 4 players. Also, the new plaguebearer models don't have horns, which the new bloodletter models have.

With the exception of Horrors, these daemons do not have access to physical abilities, as their forms are predominately fixed.

That's probably right. I don't have the WHFB army list, so I don't know their fluff.

Daemonic (racial characteristic)
A daemon's grasp on the mortal plane can sometimes be ... elusive; particuarly if his material form is damaged. Roll a D6 every time the player is stunned. On a roll of 1 the player counts as being Knocked Out. Also, a Daemonic player will only recover from being KO'd on a 5 or a 6, rather than the normal 4, 5 or 6.

Flux (racial characteristic)
The Horror has no permanent physical form; rather, his body is in a constant state of change. A the start of each of his actions, the player should choose one physical ability. He will count as having this skill until the start of his next action. The Horror may not choose the same mutation in consecutive turns.

I didn't want to invent new skills, and these aren't really necessary. Flux might also be hard to keep track of. I gave the horrors some physical abilities and assumed that they'd grow tentacles whenever they need to.

The reason I gave the daemons regenerate was btw that I reasoned that "they are not living, and everything else that isn't living has regenerate".

[Joemanji]

If you look at the new beastman models, ungors don't look faster or weaker than normal humans.

Yes, but they do look faster and weaker than other beastmen. Beastmen have +1 MV on humans in WFB - this was my attempt to incorporate that.

All of your regular players are 6 3 3 8, with the exception of bestigors (who have an extra point of AV) and chaos warriors. Are you saying that ungors, gors, marauders and the four types daemons are all physiologically identical?

But this allows a chaos team to have both ST 4 and AG 4 players, which is against Galak's team building guidelines.

Could be a problem, I suppose. BTW, they aren't Galak's guidelines; they are just on his site.

And ST 4 allows the chaos team to have five ST 4 players. Also, the new plaguebearer models don't have horns, which the new bloodletter models have.

Lizardmen have six ST 4 players (plus krox).

That's probably right. I don't have the WHFB army list, so I don't know their fluff...

The reason I gave the daemons regenerate was btw that I reasoned that "they are not living, and everything else that isn't living has regenerate".

In WFB daemons are very fragile indeed. They can deal damage, but not take it. Beat them in combat, and more than likely the whole unit disappears in a puff of smoke.

[David Bergkvist]

Yes, but they do look faster and weaker than other beastmen. Beastmen have +1 MV on humans in WFB - this was my attempt to incorporate that.

Beastmen have M 5" in WHFB? Doesn't that make them as fast as skaven? (At least when I played WHFB, skaven have M 5" and humans 4"). If that's the case, they should have MA 7 in Blood Bowl.

All of your regular players are 6 3 3 8, with the exception of bestigors (who have an extra point of AV) and chaos warriors. Are you saying that ungors, gors, marauders and the four types daemons are all physiologically identical?

Let's ignore the daemons (who I just gave those stats for balance reasons). It's unfortunate that they all have 6 3 3 8, but having the same stats doesn't mean you have the same physiology: the marauders have AV 8 because they have armor, whereas the beastmen have it because they are tough. If there was a higher resolution on the stats, it would be easier to make players that don't have similar stats. I would also like a blocking skill that wasn't quite as good as block that I could give to the marauders (so they could gave AV 7 instead), without it feeling out of place (like giving them tackle would).

But if WHFB beastmen are as fast as skaven, I could go for:

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Ungor     60k  7 3 3 8  G,Ph     -
Gor       80k  7 3 3 8  G,Ph,St  Horns
Bestigor  100k 6 3 3 9  G,Ph,St  Horns, Block

Yes, it would be good if ungors and gors had more differences than horns and strength skills, but I don't know what that would be, since I don't want ungors to be weaker than humans or gors to be too tough.

Lizardmen have six ST 4 players (plus krox).

Yes, but their ST 4 players have AG 1. And their non-ST 4 players have ST 2, so they have other weaknesses.

[Joemanji]

Elves also have Movement 5 in WFB - and they (well DE, HE & Pro) have MV 6 in BB. The difference is, the elf teams have no players below MV 6, and quite a few above it. So the average MV of an elf team is quite high. The stats for your basic beastman are set in stone, but I wanted the team as a whole to have a >6 average MV. Hence the MV 7 for ungors.

Your all MV 7 team is very, very strong. Too strong IMO. Your ungors are one skill away from being better than human blitzers!!* Is that really what you want to achieve?



* Because the have access to mutations.

[Sixpack595]

I would drop Ungors. They are too similar to beastmen. Instead I would go with Centigors. It would add a different dimension to the team.

0-2 Centigors 7 4 2 8 Sprint, Sure Feet, Frenzy Price?

[David Bergkvist]

Elves also have Movement 5 in WFB - and they (well DE, HE & Pro) have MV 6 in BB. The difference is, the elf teams have no players below MV 6, and quite a few above it. So the average MV of an elf team is quite high. The stats for your basic beastman are set in stone, but I wanted the team as a whole to have a >6 average MV. Hence the MV 7 for ungors.

I don't complain about having different MA for gors and ungors. What I have a problem with, after having seen the models, is giving ungors ST 2. It's also not so good in my oppinion if ungors are positional players and gors aren't. After all, ungors have lower status than gors.

Your all MV 7 team is very, very strong.Too strong IMO. Your ungors are one skill away from being better than human blitzers!!* Is that really what you want to achieve?

Human blitzers have ST access, which is better IMO as you can use it on every roll. And after human blitzers have gained a skill, they'll still be better.

But, yeah, they're on the good side (if not one-sided with 15 blitzer-like players and 1 blocker).

But if you can accept AV 7 on the ungors to make them worse, or gors to be faster than ungors, the following options exist:

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0-12 Ungor         50k  6 3 3 8  Ph,G     -
0-4  Gor           80k  7 3 3 8  Ph,G,St  Horns
0-4  Bestigor      100k 6 3 3 9  Ph,G,St  Horns, Block

And:

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0-12 Ungor         60k  7 3 3 7  Ph,G     Horns
0-4  Gor           80k  7 3 3 8  Ph,G,St  Horns
0-4  Bestigor      100k 6 3 3 9  Ph,G,St  Horns, Block

Yes, the first one has that 6 3 3 8 statline again. It comes back all the time.

[David Bergkvist]

I would drop Ungors. They are too similar to beastmen.

Good idea. (Or possibly drop beastigors and let gors have the stats intended for beastigors and ungors the stats indended for gors. For fluff reasons; beastigors are the most uncommon ones, I guess?)

Instead I would go with Centigors. It would add a different dimension to the team.
0-2 Centigors 7 4 2 8 Sprint, Sure Feet, Frenzy Price?

Ignoring team balance, and only considering this one player, he's a bull centaur with one point of MA instead of AV and Frenzy instead of Thick Skull. I'd say both things are better (ST 4 players don't get knocked down easy, so the extra toughness isn't as useful as the high movement and frenzy), but if the rest of the team isn't too good, you could probably get away with 130k.

[Sixpack595]

Based on the current beastmen, give Bestigor as blockers, Centigors as Blitzers.


0-12 Gor 60k 6 3 3 8 Ph,G,St Horns
0-4 Bestigor 100k 6 3 3 8 Ph,G,St Horns, Block
0-2 Centigor 130k 7 4 3 8 Ph,G,St Sure feet, Sprint, Frenzy
60K RRs

[Joemanji]

I want a Beastman team with Beastmen, a blitzer/blocker type beast and a Centigor.

0-12 Beastmen 6338 Horns 60,000
0-2 or 0-4 Bestigors 5438 Horns 100,000
0-2 Centigor 7428 Sprint, Sure Feet, Frenzy 130,000
70,000 RRs
Mino Big Guy

Maybe even Ag 1 on the Centigors. They are allways drunk, so I'm sure you could make a case of either. It would also make them even less likely to be used as ballcarriers and more as blitzers. I skipped Horns due to points cost, but it would make sence...or the fluff could be they are too tall and/or drunk to effectively butt heads with most BBers. The ones who gain horns are just more skilled/have lower or bigger horns.

[Joemanji]

OK, for a Beastman team to be viable, it must play differently from the standard Chaos team at the least, and probably every other team too. My image of a Beastman team is of a mainly ST 3 running team. Hence:

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0-12 Beastman  60k   6 3 3 8  Horns  {G,S,Ph}
0-4  Ungor     80k   7 2 3 8  Dodge, Sure Hands  {G,A,Ph}
0-2  Bestigor  100k  6 3 3 9  Block, Horns  {G,S,Ph}
Re-rolls = 60k
Minotaur Big Guy

Bestigors are bigger and tougher than the average Gor - tougher being the operative word, so they have +1 AV over a Gor, and Block because they are better at hitting people.

An all ST 3 team needs some skills to get the job done - Dodge and Sure Hands for the Ungors will help.

If you really wanted to have Centigors, then they must be stupid. You can't take the good parts of the WFB rules (Frenzy) and ignore the bad (Stupidity). I don't particularly like them, but if they were to be included...

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0-1  Centigor  100k  6 4 2 8  Bonehead, Frenzy, Sprint  {G,S,Ph}

Note that I deliberately didn't give them Sure Feet to represent their drunkeness, and to make them a bit different from Bull Centaurs.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
this is what we do:

1) Beastman team replaces Chaos team:
*0-12 Beastman 60K 6338 horns - G, ST, PH
*0-4 Bestigor 100K 5438 horns - G, ST, PH
*0-1 Minotaur big guy
ReRolls 70K, apothecary, wizard.
(in other words, it's the old chaos team except for the horns for AV switch on the Bestigor(Chaos Warriors)).

2) Marauder team replaces Norse team:
*0-12 Linemen 50K 6337 block - G, PH
*0-2 throwers 70K 6337 block, pass - G, PA, PH
*0-2 catchers 70K 6337 block, catch - G, AG, PH
*0-4 berzerkers 90K 6337 block, frenzy, jump up - G, ST, PH
ReRolls 70K, apoth, wizard.
(The norse team starts out very strong, and finishes a bit weak. We've made rerolls more expensive, but given access to physical abilities to weaken their start, but strengthen them in the long run).

3) New Daemon team.
We've been wavering between an all (minor) daemon team, and a daemon team with 50% cultist linemen. With the rules review 03, the all daemon team has been slightly weakened, which is just what the doctor ordered.
*0-4 80K Plaguebearers 5417 horn, foul A. - G, PH
*0-4 80K Bloodletters 5427 Piling On - G, ST, PH
*0-4 80K Daemonettes 7327 Claw, Gaze - G, AG, PH
*0-4 80K Pink Horrors 6337 block, big hand - G, PA, PH
ReRolls 80K, apoth, wizard, no big guy.
(I know it looks mean nasty. But it's been through literally hundreds of playtest games, and the team has enough problems to keep it in check).

Martin