Reducing Block as the #1 skill in the game

Got a great idea and/or proposal for BloodBowl?

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stashman
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Post by stashman »

If block really is the number one skill, the most powerful, then why don't dwarfs, chaos dwarfs, norse, humans and dark elfs always win (the team with most Block skill as rookie team) ?

If block should be soo broken, then teams like norse and dwarfs should have been totally diffrent. I have played since LRB4 (2004) and the only thing that has changed was to make the norse a bit better (adding ST4 players and Dauntless catchers), not to nerf them.

Khemri is getting nerfed, and I don't see why? :lol:

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Post by Otake »

mattgslater wrote:
Grumbledook wrote:and fwiw I've found there is a lot less fouling in LRB5, dirty player isn't as good, you don't get +1 for the player doing the foul any more, yet the odds of getting sent off are essentially the same apparently
Actually, LRB5 has better odds of getting sent off than any set of rules without IGMEOY, and any set of rules with IGMEOY if care is taken.
IMO, it's only if your opponent fouls too. If he doesn't want to be fooled, usually he doesn't fight back, and then you do 2 fouls per match and that's all.
But now your opponent has no more impact on your fouling choices (but it's more risky, I admit).

In addition, if you add "Sneaky git", the risks are lower.

To come back to the original topic of the post, for me Block is much better than Wrestle and Sidestep (but not Dodge) for lengthening the lifespan of your players, which is better in a long-term (or perpetual) league. But the facts are that I've not used Wrestle a lot and that I'm an "oldschool" (from 3rd ed) player who likes fouling (especially the down Wrestle players ! :))


In addition I think that Blocking teams are not always winning because a lot of their opponents take "Block" as a skill too (or have it on a few players to start with). From my experience as a LRB4 Norse coach, in early matches they are killers on agile teams, before your opponents start to beef up with block and Dodge skills (but then you're planning ahead and have taken Tackle skills to continue to mow down elves and skaven).
So in the end most teams end up with lot of Blocks and Dodge and/or Tackle and it has been like that for nearly 15 years. It's a situation that I despise, I'm fed up with it. So I tried to think of a way to have the possibility to have vastly different teams of the same race and to even the "usefulness" of each skill. I found that a skill should come into play twice or thrice on average in a match. It's not the case of the infamous Block/Dodge/Tackle trio.


But I do admit that the modifications I'm actually testing are too huge to be already accurate and complete. Some teams have to be redesigned and player values recalculated. I'm even considering altering a Java client and asking coaches worldwide to test the modifications with high TR teams...

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Post by Grumbledook »

indeed it did used to be that way

but the introduction of wrestle and fend have made other skill builds really useful against it

taking down blockers with wrestle (when they hit you) and they can't hit you again the next turn and waste 3 squares standing up which also hurts the teams ability to manoeuvre, fend also keeps them in their place

it is also great for players designed to sack the ball carrier it is another result on the block dice to knock them down (ok there is no av roll but the ball goes loose), combined with strip ball and you have a great combo

it has take a while for coaches to get to grips with wrestle and at first I thought it was pretty much a joke skill, there was a good thread regarding wrestle in the general chat area not too long ago iirc

might be worth a read

but the block dodge tackle guard choices aren't as clear cut as they used to be

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Post by Otake »

:) Ok, I'll read it. And test Wrestle more throughoutly. Thanks for the advice.

I do recognize the utility of Wrestle, but I think you only need to have 2 or 3 of them, and a few Blocks in the team before getting Wrestle.

I agree that you put one of your opponent down and that he has to get up to play, but then he gets up before your own player, so he's one player more on the pitch. And we all know of the great importance of numerical superiority during a Bloodbowl match, especially with non-AG4 teams...

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Post by Smeborg »

I regard Block as a good skill, but not necessarily as a skill of choice.

By way of practical example, I am currently running a Nurgle team in a longish league. After 19 games, they have 1 player with Block (a Rotter) and 2 players with Wrestle (Pestigors).

Now if my team development goes according to plan, then after 5-10 more games I will have maybe 5 or 6 players with Block. But that's still only half of the team (and one third of the squad). And the team is performing well (13 wins, 4 draws, 2 losses, and the last 8 games have been wins).

Hope this helps.

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Post by Ironjaw »

I think you should change the rules of block.

If you roll a skull, you can change it to a pow.
If you roll a both down, you can change it to a skull.
If you roll an arrow, the blocker actually gets pushed back instead of the defender
If you roll iPow, and your opponent has strong arm, you can re roll the block dice
If you roll a Pow, you can change it to a both down, and roll 4 times to break armour.

If the defender has block and the attacker doesn't, you can't block them.

The good thing about it as well is it shouldn't be too hard to get it into the new rulebook.

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Post by Otake »

Smeborg wrote:I regard Block as a good skill, but not necessarily as a skill of choice.

By way of practical example, I am currently running a Nurgle team in a longish league. After 19 games, they have 1 player with Block (a Rotter) and 2 players with Wrestle (Pestigors).

Now if my team development goes according to plan, then after 5-10 more games I will have maybe 5 or 6 players with Block. But that's still only half of the team (and one third of the squad). And the team is performing well (13 wins, 4 draws, 2 losses, and the last 8 games have been wins).

Hope this helps.
It's funny, because I’m also playing Nurgle nowadays. I’m only 5 matches.
Block is my first skill on Nurgle Warriors. (albeit I'm actually considering Horns as first skill on one of them, to gleefully Blitz other teams Big guys or ST4 players, or blitz into regrouped players).

I agree with you that Block is not the first skill choice on Pestigors, but I would never give them Wrestle, they're too precious to be laid under my opponents boots !
Personnaly, I put Sure Hands on 2 of them (to do something with the ball and even try PASSES) and Tackle to hunt blodgers. The fourth will have Block.



As for suggestion, I find it great (I already had thought about the attacker choosing to be Pushed Back instead of the Defender, but personnaly I would also consider to put it on Fend, giving it the extra edge it needs).
Alas, it's IMO too complicated to be widely spread.

I think I've found a simple nerfing that would do the trick :


"On a Skull/Pow, the player can choose instead that he stays up and his opponent goes Prone (with no Armour Roll). If the opponent has Block also, he doesn't go Prone. In this case, nothing happens, both players are left standing. If the Attacker chooses not to use his Block skill, the Defender can choose to use his."


A sentence a bit complicated, but on the pitch it works quite the same way as before, except there's no Armour Roll.


As already said, modifying Block implies modifying Dodge and Tackle.

Simple way too :
1. Dodge don't work on Block rolls anymore. It can now be used any number of times during a turn.

2. When a "Defender Stumbles" (!Pow) result is chosen, proceed as usual EXCEPT the maximum injury the Defender can suffer is Stunned.

3. Tackle works like prehensive tail. Only one Tackle skill applied on any Dodge rolls.

4. Prehensive tail : any player without the Dodge skill successfully dodging out of one square of the prehensive tailed player roll a dice : on a 1, he lands Prone on his back. No turnover, unless the dodging player had the ball.
(Essentially, a second and easier Dodge, with much less impact on failure. A bit weak perhaps. If somebody has a better idea. Perhaps something on the tail giving extra balance? Like part of the old 3rd ed "Stand Firm" Skill ? : "If the player misses his Dodge Roll, his turn is finished but he is left standing ? Or falls Prone on his back with no Turn-Over ?)

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