Amsterdam BB Invitational

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Wed May 15, 2002 10:30 am

Perfect

Spyke · Post by **Spyke** » Wed May 15, 2002 10:54 am

My 2 cents worth on the tourney format. I don't like the most SPP's wins the tournament proposal, AND I also don't like the way Ressurection did it. A tournament winner should be from amongst those whom have won the most (or all) of their games. The tie-breaker could be based on anything relavent (TD's or SPP's etc..), but the possibility that a losing coach gets the most SPP's and wins the tournament is a joke (IMHO)

Spyke.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Wed May 15, 2002 11:29 am

I agree completely with you Norse!! Surely under a straight SPP system it'd be entirely possible to not actually win a game and win the tourney! Too much depends on the draw. If you're playing Orcs for example, and come up against Orcs or Dwarves, it's inevitably going to result in a low SPP game for both teams, at least it always does in our League. Elf/Elf or Elf Skaven tend to trade TD's, easier to score with them and harder to stop. And they still have at least one Blitz per turn against an AV7 opponent, so stand just as much chance as picking up cas. as two AV9 teams pounding each other. I really don't think that there's any question that AG teams will rack up more SPPs. I'll run some numbers based on the Res. results if you like, I can't factor in completions or ints, but cas. and TD's scored are there.

It's an interesting concept, but it's a radical change to the way the game is played, and it'd mean fundamentally different strategy/tactics.
I'll run those numbers anyway.

Another suggestion:
Post the proposed format in a seperate thread for discussion. People not attending may not be bothering with this thread, and it should generate more feedback/response.

Sounds like I'm having a real whinge here, I'm not, honest guv!

You did ask for thoughts! I'm forward to meeting people and having fun whatever the format. Hey! How about a Goblin Tribal League?

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Wed May 15, 2002 11:58 am

What we want to avoid is a last turn, losing 2-0, don't give a sh*t problem.

This way, every turn of every game could constitute an important change.. plus, everything could hinge on the last dice roll on the last day..

Let me put it this way, on the Saturday you play 3 games, and you play well, picking up a lot of SPPs on casualties and completions, but nit actually winning the game. Would you care what happened on Sunday if you could not still win the tournament? Would you turn up? No offence intended, I'm sure you all would, butwould your heart be in it?

I take the point that this may favour Elf or Skaven teams as they score more, but they do generally suffer more along the way allowing opponents to pick up casualty SPPs.

I think resurrection was handled very badly. I'm not saying this solution is ideal, but it gives everyone a fairer chance and should reward the player that plays the most entertaining BB. Do you want a guy that wins all games 1-0 to win the tourney? I really want to keep things exciting, every dice roll becomes important this way, not just the final result...

Still open to suggestions though...

DW fill out that Excel sheet would you mate?

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Wed May 15, 2002 12:10 pm

Norse, I think this tourney has the advantage of more or less all attendees being on these forums, there's going to be a lot of banter and a lot of pride at stake. I fully expect every game to be competitive until the end. Everybody will surely be going all out to win each game irrespective of what's happened in preceding games.
Right, I'll get on with these spreadsheets, but don't hold your breath, excell's not really my thing, I'm just an uneuthusiastic amateur who should be painting amazons. Should be up sometime this afternoon!

Princelucianus · Post by **Princelucianus** » Wed May 15, 2002 12:12 pm

Spyke wrote:My 2 cents worth on the tourney format. I don't like the most SPP's wins the tournament proposal, AND I also don't like the way Ressurection did it. A tournament winner should be from amongst those whom have won the most (or all) of their games. The tie-breaker could be based on anything relavent (TD's or SPP's etc..), but the possibility that a losing coach gets the most SPP's and wins the tournament is a joke (IMHO)

Spyke.

As Norse said, I totally agree with this, but we generally fear lack of commitment during the second day if a team has lost twice+ and knows he's without a chance to win the tournament. Considering several options from the last posts, I would recommend that we try this out, with a few adjustments. Gaining 5 Spp's for winning a game f.i.

The fact remains that all things considered, we want to achieve two things.
1- Keep everybody's chances to win the tourney until the last game.
2- Find a format which will allow just that.

We haven't tried it yet and if we keep it like I posted, then Skaven/ELves might have better chances, though a dwarf team that beats the crap out of an elf team, and scores 1/2 Td's will have scored amazingly good as well. If we only use the winner option, then 50+% will know on saturday that they will not win the tourney and we are trying to get that bug out

. Keep the discussion going......

Lucy

Post by **Thadrin** » Wed May 15, 2002 1:15 pm

I think there will be people who know they're out of it after the first day whatever system you use...after all, if one team has gained itself 50 odd SPPs...not out of the question for a team getting three TDs per game...and another generates all of 20 odd on the first day then they're effectively out of the running.

I'd prefer something reflecting overall record, TD differential and casualty differential.

Like (percentage wins/5) + (TD diff) + (Cas diff/2) = overall score.

Assuming five games, the first will give scores of twenty, sixteen, twelve, eight, four and nil. The second two are tiebreakers, allowing both hitters and scorers a chance to get points.

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Wed May 15, 2002 1:17 pm

One problem...

if we award an extra amount of points for winning the game, then skaven and elves are even more likely to pick up more points, as they usually win games on TDs (and lose on casualties) so I don't think that works..

What I wanted to represent was how "entertaining" a team has been to watch.. My dwarves don't score often, but they are psychos on the pitch and that's what my fans want to see..

By using SPPs as a measuring stick, we reward the most adventurous coach for his entertaining style of play.. Don't worry about elves and Skaven too much, following up when you have tackle tends to have the desired effect.

Yes Deathwing, you're right, most guys going are from this forum and so a lot of pride is at stake. I understand Spyke's concern too, though I don't think anyone needs to get

quite yet. By my reckoning, 14 guys could enter the last game and know if they have a good/lucky game, they will stand a chance of picking up the trophy. They may have lost a game or two along the way, but they have played the most entertaining BB...

One dice blocks might just be worth it under such circumstances...

Spyke · Post by **Spyke** » Wed May 15, 2002 5:37 pm

Having read Lucy's post re 5 SPP's for winning a game I'm a happier camper now, but as far am I'm concerned I'm going to play some Blood Bowl against coaches I'd not meet in normal circumstances and HAVE FUN. Whatever the format and system used to determine the winner I'm getting hyped just about being there

Spyke.

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Wed May 15, 2002 6:06 pm

so,we will see with trambi to find a hotel and we are ok to come, is there still places?

Anthony_TBBF · Post by **Anthony_TBBF** » Wed May 15, 2002 6:13 pm

Lemme jump in for a sec and give my unbiased opinion

First, determining anything by SPPs is a bad idea IMO. SPPs are designed to reward individual players for performance over time, not teams as a whole. I've run two tournaments and participated in a few others and things are never going to be 100% fair between all teams, but in my experience determining anything by total TDs or casualties has been quite unbalancing.

Resurrection is an excellent format, but it did need tweaking. I used the same format at Orion but implemented some changes discussed by some of us when it was over. Here's how we scored it:

4 pts for a win
2 pts for a tie or loss by one
1 pt for a loss
0 pts for conceding

All ties were broken by TD differential, and we did not include points for sportsmanship or painting like Res did (we had seperate awards for that).

So why should anyone bother playing the second day if they aren't competing for the top spot (besides the obvious reasons)? For glory! Gregg Giersch who runs Fanaticon has an excellent system for keeping people interested. He gives awards for the top race over all, so if your Halflings came in 12th place, but they were the top Halfling team, well that is quite an accomplishent! It really gives you something to work for and encourages people to play something other than Norse/Skaven/Amazons etc. Other than that, the points system really awards people who fight for wins rather than ties. Drawing with your opponent means less points for him as well and reflects better on your score since your TD differential doesn't suffer as well.

As for skills etc., I like the Res system but you could easily change that up. One idea we had after Orion was to let teams start with 130TR instead of 100.

Hope that helps a bit! If you have any questions just fire away.

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Thu May 16, 2002 1:26 am

I had been skipping this thread until reading the last page tonight. Using SPPs is problematic, but why not have a bunch of additional awards to keep player interest?

So don't use SPPs to determine the overall winner...

...but do have a separate award for the team that racks up the most SPPs.

Don't use total TDs to determine the overall winner...

...but do have a separate award for the team that scores the most touchdowns.

Be sure to include "joke" awards, too. "Most Boring Team" (fewest SPPs) and a special "Punching Bag Award" (for taking the most casualties) would be cool if handled in a funny manner.

I'm sure you guys can take it from there. Cheers!

-Chet

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Thu May 16, 2002 7:17 am

Great in principle..

but I don't think Andy Hall will spring to 14 different prizes, do you? At the end of the day this is a competition, not a gift-giving event, so I think the "came from overseas and didn't win any other awards" award is not liable to be handed over..

It seems that most people don't like the SPPs idea. Well, b*gger! I thought it was a great way of keeping everyone's chances going, even if they have a bad game. It also gave the hitters a relative chance to keep up with the scorers. If a Gobbo team inflicts 6 or 7 casualties during a game, but loses 3-0, they have still had the "better game" under the circumstances. Still OK, you guys don't seem to like it. I don't like the idea that winning is all that matters. Anyone who saw Arsenal play in the late 90s ("1-0 to the Arsenal was the common chant at Highbury!) knows that teams that grab a score and then ruin the rest of the game for the spectators are not popular. I don't want someone to win JUST because they have won 5 games 1-0.. what about a player that wins 4 games 3-0 and ties his 5th game 3-3 ?? Isn't he more deserving of praise and award than his boring, more successful counterpart? Am I writing too much?

Need to do more thinking on this. Thankfully we still have 2 more months to finalise the rules. No need for panic quite yet!

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Thu May 16, 2002 7:38 am

Sorry forgot to add 2 things:

We now have 14 confirmed attendees, which is already 2 more than the original 12 we had wanted. That said Trambi, Longshot, if you want to come, you are very welcome indeed. PM me THIS WEEK to confirm your definite interest, otherwise I will consider the guest list as officially closed. I hope you agree that this is fair.

Don't worry about the bar owner. My wife works for the worlds largest alcohol distributor, so she is negotiating with the marketing department to offer the guy a special deal, so I think the need for a painted Thrudd is lessening...

Keep posting!

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu May 16, 2002 1:00 pm

prize ideas:

Overall winner - Whatever you can con Andy Hall into giving us

Most SPPs (Team) - a gold painted Griff Oberwald mini
Most Cas (team) - a gold painted Zug mini.
most TDs (team) - a gold painted ??? mini.
Most useless (least SPPs - Team) - a bronze painted Price Moron mini.
Most cas (suffered - team) - a bronze painted Halfling mini.
last place - a wooden spoon.

Still like my formula or determining the winner. Lets look at it this way - if a guy wins all 5 games 1-0 thats one hell of a display of defensive blood bowl. I've had one-nil wins that took a lot of cunning and strategy to pull off - thinking paticularly about a game I played against Humans a couple of months back (recieve-score-defend deep in own half rest of game. Use ball carriers' own bodyguard to push the ball carrier into the crowd etc.)