Is this normal...?

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 12:27 pm

Is it normal, common procedure, on tourneys that you can't win the price for the best painted team if you haven't painted the minis by yourself?(regardless if you had the conversion ides, collected rare and unusual miniatures etc.)

Just wanted to now... (how was it handled on the major tourneys?)

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 12:33 pm

It's certainly not uncommon. The upcoming Pearly Kings for example requires you to have painted the team yourself for eligibilty. And quite right too!

Post by **Thadrin** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:01 pm

*cough*spyke*cough*

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:18 pm

Deathwing wrote:It's certainly not uncommon. The upcoming Pearly Kings for example requires you to have painted the team yourself for eligibilty. And quite right too!

I can understand that, in terms of fairness (like rich stupid kid gets his minis painted by star painter and wins every award etc.). I don't want to crusade for another view or so, just wanted to ask.

I never thought of that before until I read the rules of Dungeon Bowl.

I was eager to enter the contest with my Chaos Dwarfs which are not painted by myself. I wanted to enter not bc. they are painted by someone else who paints better but because I put much energy and love into this team (collecting rare minis, making up cool conversions, trying to fit fluff etc.). The idea and brain behind the team was my, but I was lacking the proficiency to paint. So, what does best painted team means: plain painting quality, conversion, coolness?

Anyone who has seen my CD team will understand that you won't get this when you buy a chaso Dwarf team box, go to a master painter and say "paint this, I'll pay everything".

So, this is where I come from, but I can understand in terms of equality that I will be barred from the best painted team award.

traveller · Post by **traveller** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:59 pm

I put much energy and love into this team (collecting rare minis, making up cool conversions, trying to fit fluff etc.)

... yep, this i did and i painted my orcteam myself. Thats maybe the reason i won the best painted (or most converted

) team price at Mannheim Massacre. And there were a lot of great teams, too. Very close...

IMO the winner of this price should do everything by himself. If not, it will happend like you wrote

.... rich kid / person gets his minis painted by star painter

....
I knew, thats hard for you and your well made team, but maybe you should better take painting lessons from Mr. Weiss ( and you are a lucky guy to knew a painter like him !!) to improve your painting skills than get teams painted by him ?

Its like Tim was sitting next to me while playing and giving me advices to win the game... wouldnt be fair to win a tournement by this kind of play, or ?

Traveller

Xtreme · Post by **Xtreme** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:46 pm

I really hope this is common practice. I would even go further and wish painting point were lost on teams not painted by the coach.

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:19 pm

Isn't that too biased? If so, people who can't paint good won't gonna win any tourney (or land on the top ranks). After all in a BB-tourney, coaching skill is supposed to be the measure, isn't it?

Xtreme · Post by **Xtreme** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:54 pm

Well along with that I think Painting points should account for very little of the actual score. but i really like the system the Canadian Open is using where the points are based more on effort then skill.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:04 pm

Xtreme wrote:Well along with that I think Painting points should account for very little of the actual score. but i really like the system the Canadian Open is using where the points are based more on effort then skill.

GenCon next year will be based on effort ... either by you or your hired gun. So even a poor painter who spends the time himself will get maximum points for painting just like the guy who drops 200 USD to get a pro to do his team.

and yes, Best Painted will only go to a team painted by the the owner at GenCon as well.

Galak

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:26 pm

I disagree with Xtreme. The point of awarding painting points at tournies is to encourage guys to bring painted teams.

I'd rather see 20 painted teams at a tourney with maybe 4 or 5 borrowed and 4 or 5 painted by people other than the owners than 20 teams with 5 primed or bare metal. Of course you'd have 15 painted by their owners as opposed to 10-12, but to what end?

Playing with painted teams (generally) makes the game more enjoyable for the players, makes it much more attractive to onlookers and looks good in the pics to boot. Plus of course there's no real way of checking who painted their own teams and who didn't.

Painting Awards are a very seperate thing to painting points which are simply there to help encourage a good looking tourney overall and (to a lesser extent) used as a tiebreaker. (And in that situation, sportsmanship should be more important than how good you are with a brush, IMO anyway!)

Xtreme · Post by **Xtreme** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:57 pm

Nearly all of the tournament I have seen lately required painted teams, so that should be enough to insure that you will be playing aginst a fully painted team. I just don't like the fact that people can buy tournament points. I came up with a good analogy a while ago,

If you were in a class at school and you had a big paper due soon and you knew for a fact that the guy next to you bought his online and you spent hours and hours doing yours, would you think it fair if he got a better grade? And then on top of that if the Profesor knew he bought his and didn't care one way or another? I think rewarding points for teams that aren't painted by the coach is encouraging coaches to buy painted teams or hire someone to paint them. As it says if you aren't a great painter and you want those points buy them. Now with the new systems that are going to be used at the Canadian open and GenCon this whole thing won't be an issue any more. As all teams are bieng judged on effort everyone has the same oppurtinty to get full points wither they painted them or not, and bieng an average painter won't work against you as you won't be judged against the great teams that turn up to tournaments.

But as I said all of this is really a moot point if the trend to judge on effort continues. Which I hope it does.

gken1 · Post by **gken1** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:09 pm

I don't like the idea of a player losing points because he didn't paint it. I know at the chaos cup if you didn't paint the team yourself you lost points. just seems lame. if i'm gonna lose points if paint or don't paint cuz I suck at painting then why put in the effort.

Yavatol · Post by **Yavatol** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:38 pm

I don't mind who painted the team where handing out tourny points are concerned. But when voting for best painted team I always ask if the owner painted their own team.

On the other hand, I know somebody who won a price for best painted team and did not paint it himself. He handed over the price who actually painted it. That seems fair enough. But I understand you cannot trust everyone to do just that.

ORTHODUB · Post by **ORTHODUB** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:51 pm

To flip the post from a painters view, why should i suffer in points because i am not such a good coach. Why cant i play in a major tourny but get my mate who happens to be a dam good coach play my games and then when i go up at the end to claim my prize acknowledge him for his game play?.
The points gained for painting are no where near those gained for game play, and too right. The painting points are like bonus points for realy making the effort to learn a skill. Two years ago i could not paint or play any war game too well, so i learned. I am not the best painter or gamer but i pick up points for the skills i have, thats the point.
As for the source arguement, why should you win an award for paying for a skill you dont own. Why would you want to ?. I would rather win an award for something i did; not what i paid for. Yes you may have the ideas, i have ideas about winning every torney i enter but that does not mean i have the skill to do so.
Sorry to get all serious but it anoys me that people think they can buy teams and think its okay to win awards. I once saw an army where the guy who won had spent like 30hrs a figure painting and converting; i talked to him for quite a while on his conversions and painting style. Yet the second place bloke could not tell me what colours he used to achieve the finish, did he paint the team?. Anyway moan over......

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:17 pm

gken1 wrote:I don't like the idea of a player losing points because he didn't paint it. I know at the chaos cup if you didn't paint the team yourself you lost points. just seems lame. if i'm gonna lose points if paint or don't paint cuz I suck at painting then why put in the effort.

These are the rules I'm using for the 2004 GenCon tournament. The more I've talked to other tournaments, the more I felt these rules were the way to go vs giving more points to professional paint jobs over folks who spent a lot of personal time but just don't have massive talent:

GenCon 2004 painting rules:

Painting
This is an official Games Workshop event . As such, all models in your team must be appropriate or converted Citadel miniatures reasonably representative of your team. All models must be painted – this means more than an undercoat! In fact the models must have a minimum of 2 different colors and the bases must be flocked/decorated or at a minimum painted some color or you will not be allowed to enter the tournament (NO EXCEPTIONS!!!)

Up to twenty extra Tournament Points are awarded for team painting. You get five points for each of the below criteria achieved. The judges will award points not on aesthetics but on the strict guidelines given below, this means any painter of any standard can gain the maximum three points if he puts the effort in and follows the guidelines. (The judges’ decision is final).

+5 Based: All the bases in the team (including coaching staff) are painted and textured in some manner. The baseline for texture is flock as a minimum. Just being painted green is not enough!

+5 Painted: The team is painted, all models have at least 3 colors on them. Different colors should be used for different areas. Undercoats must not be visible.

+5 Detailed: All models have had the details of the model painted in a variety of colors or with noticeable effects. This can be shading or highlighting, or 'black-lining' etc. This discriminates between the merely painted team and the team that has had attention paid to it. Important: In order to get the point all the models in the team must fulfill the criteria. If even one fails, the points can't be scored.

During registration, painting points will be assigned. Each judge will pick three teams for the Best Team vote. These teams are chosen for purely aesthetic and subjective reasons but will have received must have received a full 15 painting points to be considered and must also have been painted by the coach playing the team.

All players in the tournament will be invited to vote for the Best Team during lunch of the 1st day of the Tournament. The most votes will win the player the award for Best Painted and 5 additional tournament points (ties will be broken by judges decision).

Galak