passing and hand-offs.....

Moderator: TFF Mods

User avatar
valedictor
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 1:39 pm
Location: Canterbury UK
Contact:

Post by valedictor »

Ian, i bet that is a truly rewarding experience! :) but wouldn't it be just as rewarding when on the recieving end to have that little extra bit of extra opportunity to slam the runner/ catcher before he gets home, (as just allowing a pass OR hand off might allow?)

I reckon it would also then make it even MORE rewarding if you had to work those 1 or 2 squares harder for that TD, especially if you have had to sweat it for the opponents turn while he tries to close the distance and bring you down (in the process, hopefully failing hilariously with a zombie trying to break into a sprint and tripping at the last with some bold yet futile GFI's!)

I just figured it might help with balance, but if experienced coaches are capable of handling these deep reaching chain-drives comfortably, then i'm sure i'll find it difficult to find a veteran coach to agree with my reasoning totally, as i'm sure they will inform me that game balance is just fine the way it is :) I thought it might be nice to make it a bit trickier to achieve in theory as WELL as in practice under the direction of a seasoned coach (i.e: through wise defensive tactics)

All the best, John 8)

Reason: ''
User avatar
DoubleSkulls
Da Admin
Posts: 8219
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 12:55 pm
Location: Back in the UK
Contact:

Post by DoubleSkulls »

I guess experienced coaches are aware of the possibilities.

At the 1st level you have to defend against players who can score regardless of where the ball is (i.e. can they move the the end zone). Normally one of your own players is fine to mark them. It makes any catch more difficult and means they have to dodge. Against good receivers you'll need to double team them - or even blitz them as they can't catch the ball lying on the ground.

Next step up is understanding how the move works - it requires 3 players to perform their roles perfectly. So identify the likely suspects for passer & hand-off bloke and defend against them too. Also examine the likely routes your opponent will use and block them off.

These plays are relatively high risk, even for Elves, since you are rolling a lot of dice to make the play work. This makes it quite likely that your opponent will turn over so its important to ensure you can exploit his failure.

Ian

Reason: ''
User avatar
Ddraig Coch
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:24 pm
Location: Newport, South Wales

Post by Ddraig Coch »

Hi Nerm :)

Glad you can join us. It's a pity John didn't think about that weakness in the Lizardmen team. He needs to protect them more (like you do by putting a player or two around your Minotaur)

Dave

Reason: ''
Heaven's calling, Hell is here....
User avatar
Ddraig Coch
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:24 pm
Location: Newport, South Wales

Post by Ddraig Coch »

As Ian said, there can be very few more rewarding things in Blood Bowl (for the finesse coach anyway), then the end-to-end TD.

We have a small league (five of us in South Wales, we are always looking for more players), I play a Wood Elf team which has managed to pull the end-to-end TD off a couple of times.

Now all I need is Two or Three W.E. Catchers with Side Step, Leap and Nerves of Steel :D There could be no stopping them then. :D

regards

Dave

Reason: ''
Heaven's calling, Hell is here....
User avatar
valedictor
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 1:39 pm
Location: Canterbury UK
Contact:

Post by valedictor »

completely unfamiliar with lizardman play thus far in my BB career, hence the lack of know how with positioning and tactics i'm afraid :)

glad you get so much pleasure from pulling off those audacious plays Dave; i feel almost guilty suggesting that this opportunity be diminished now! :wink:

cheers, John 8)

Reason: ''
User avatar
Ddraig Coch
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:24 pm
Location: Newport, South Wales

Post by Ddraig Coch »

Well Valedictor, we had a vote in our little league, and decided to stay with 3rd Ed rules on hand offs. It is to the advantage of everyone, but I guess the Elven teams can take the most advantage out of it

Dave

Reason: ''
Heaven's calling, Hell is here....
User avatar
Nermal
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 6:40 pm
Location: Newport South Wales

Post by Nermal »

and he loves to take advantage of it :)

especially when he can get an end to end right dave

Reason: ''
Rolling Thunder
User avatar
Ddraig Coch
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:24 pm
Location: Newport, South Wales

Post by Ddraig Coch »

Right Nerm,

There is nothing more fun than sucking in the opponents offense that tries to sack the thrower, then to have the thrower run past them, throw to another Elf, who then catches, runs and hands off to another Elf who then scores.

Sweet, sweet music. If music be the grace of Blood Bowl. Play on....

Dave

Reason: ''
Heaven's calling, Hell is here....
User avatar
Nermal
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 6:40 pm
Location: Newport South Wales

Post by Nermal »

stop rubbibg it in. :x



i had more cas's anyway :D

Reason: ''
Rolling Thunder
User avatar
Ddraig Coch
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:24 pm
Location: Newport, South Wales

Post by Ddraig Coch »

Yes, playing Wood Elves does limit your Casualty scoring ability. Perhaps the most important Strength skill (a double for Elves) is Guard. O boy do I desperately need a couple of LineElves with that !

Dave

Reason: ''
Heaven's calling, Hell is here....
User avatar
Nermal
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 6:40 pm
Location: Newport South Wales

guard

Post by Nermal »

yup i wanna couple of CD's with that but they are not getting many spp's at the mo.

Reason: ''
Rolling Thunder
User avatar
valedictor
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 1:39 pm
Location: Canterbury UK
Contact:

Post by valedictor »

Just returning to this thread because in our latest game, my opponent pulled me up on it.

I had passed, the catch had been caught, the reciever had run and handed off, and i was about to move the new ball carrier. My opponent asked how on earth i was allowed to make so many consecutive moves in one turn, progressing a long way into her half of the pitch in the process.

I pulled out the LRB to find the exact wording that would prove to her that i could actually pass and hand off in the same turn.

And.. i struggled to find it!

First of all, hand off is not included in the list of actions on page 8 (but this is understandable as it is covered as an extra rule later on, but it's omission here didn't help my case!) :)

Secondly, in the hand-off section (page 20), it states the following...

"A hand-off is a type of very Short pass..."

...note that 'Short' is capitalised there, just as it is capitalised when it is referred to in the charts for throwing. This serves to strengthen the case for my opponent, as it seems to be saying that a hand-off IS just a Short pass (the shortest possible version of it!) and not a seperate action in its own right. If it wasn't capitalised, the reference could be treated as simply saying 'well, it's a bit like throwing a pass, but here's how its different...' But, the wording here seems to categorise hand-offs as a kind of PASS.

The only part which really helps to define a hand-off as a different action to passing comes shortly after the previous quote...

'Handing off the ball is an action, like Move, Blitz, Pass,etc' (pg 20)

...which helped my case a bit, as both hand off and pass are mentioned seperate to each other in the same sentance, so then great, that means they are definitely different actions, but then my opponent pointed out further down (page 20) that...

'The hand-off counts as an 'accurate pass''

...which could easily be understood to mean that the hand-off IS your one permitted pass for that team turn.

Finally showed my opponent some references to run, pass, run, hand-off, run-type plays in non-LRB material, and also some of the posts on this thread, and that seems to have done the job! But it did make me consider the following points:

* Do you think that handing off (as well as fouling) should now be listed in the actions list on page8? (a note could be included next to these two actions to refer new players to the extra rules section if they wish to find out what they are while absorbing the core rules, even if they do not wish to use them yet). It would then definitely identify a hand-off as a different action, and, i think that the action list is pretty important to the game and should be totally complete, regardless of where the descriptions of the actions occur within the LRB. (just as several others have mentioned how much better it would be to have all the causes of a turnover included together).

* Is the wording in the hand-off section a bit misleading? I think that 'A hand-off is similar to a very Short pass' would be a lot better. Saying that it is a TYPE of very Short pass makes it sound like it belongs under the Short pass heading. Noticed the request at the front of the LRB for suggestions for making the rules clearer, so if typos and clarification are being considered for the LRB, then i think that this might help, and certainly wouldn't hurt.

* More interestingly, (i have very little interest in all this kind of nit-picking over wording and the like believe it or not; difficult to believe looking at how much i've typed here! lol)... was wondering if it was ever considered to just have either a pass or a hand-off per team turn during the conception of the 3rd edition rules, or was the current rule of allowing both always been the intention?
Seemed to me like it was quite a dramatic departure from the old 2nd edition, which maintained the feeling of actions occuring simultaneously (by only allowing the pass at the end of the turn), rather than the very consecutive-action play that is possible from 3rd edition onwards. Would like to hear from anyone who chatted to Jervis Johnson or anyone else involved in the 3rd edition game's design what the thinking was at the time for changing this facet of the game.

Cheers! John :)

p.s. can anyone point me int he right direction for the proposed kicking rules? Ta!

Reason: ''
Deathwing
The Voice of Reason
Posts: 6449
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2001 12:00 am
Contact:

Post by Deathwing »

This may help:
viewtopic.php?t=1947

Reason: ''
Image

"Deathwing treats newcomers like sh*t"
"...the brain dead Mod.."
User avatar
valedictor
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 1:39 pm
Location: Canterbury UK
Contact:

Post by valedictor »

Cheers DW...both entertaining AND informative that! :)

Hmm... i see i just went up a notch to 'experienced'... hardly appropriate for a guy who still posts regularly to the newbie section ;)

John 8)

Reason: ''
User avatar
Holy G
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2002 1:13 pm
Location: Manchester

Post by Holy G »

Understand the comments re.....run...handoff....pass....run..score...seems easy but in my experience if you have a fast team, scoring tends to be no problem even with only pass / handoff per turn, So allowing only one or the other per turn could adversely effect the slower teams who actually need poth Pass and hand off to complete there gameplay...thought ..?

I play with Wood Elves, Orcs and bright crusaders and find that both are needed really only by the slower team.... and not the quick ones.

Reason: ''
Post Reply