Beating Dwarfs with Skaven

Vigil · Post by **Vigil** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 4:51 am

OK, first let me just mention that I've searched a bit first and not found a thread that helps me out here aside from general 'run away' things which doesn't help much. Most people seem to discuss skaven tactics with the proviso 'unless you're playing dwarfs' which makes me scared of the upcoming game. So far I'm doing pretty well, ranked first in my league and I'd like to prevent most of my team suffering the hundreds of injuries that have beset every team that plays this monster team. So if anyone has any ideas, let me have them.

Here's all the background info I can get.

My team: Eshinbred Shaderunners
========
1 x ST4 Stormvermin
1 x Stormverming
1 x Gutter Runner (Block, Dodge)
1 x Gutter Runner (Block, Dodge, Skill (not taken))
1 x Linerat (Foul Appearance)
4 x Linerats
1 x Rat Ogre (Block)
1 x Thrower (Niggling)
1 x Apoth
2 x RR
13 x FF (lucky with the dice and had a Charity Match DZ played on me)
$120,000 in the bank
=========

Obviously I spend my games praying for a pitch invasion that never happens. Now I've got one skill to choose and need to work out how to play and whether or not I'd agree to using DZ cards (we only do if both coaches agree). His team as far as I know is like this.

5 Longbeards
2 Blitzers
2 Troll Slayers
2 Runners
RR 2
FF 6

Although after the winnings of 2 wins and 1 draw he's surely bought more. I know he has no big guys yet.

The real reason I'm freaking out is there's a chance we'll be using the buying secret weapons rules from BB#4 with the proviso they need to be given to rookie players due to the need for special training. If the league does agree to this he may be buying himself a Death Roller to keep before my match. That's not a happy thought.

Any ideas? I'm getting scared just writing this.

Anthony_TBBF · Post by **Anthony_TBBF** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 6:24 am

I wouldn't worry about the Deathroller too much, one blitz with that ST4 Stormvermin with a bit of help will have it out of the game in no time.

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 6:49 am

First, I would normally advise you to take side step for your gutter runner, but in this case that wont help as much. With Dodge you can assure yourself of lots of pushbacks, but against dwarves that's not possible. So in this case I would suggest Sure Feet or Catch.

With the money you have in the bank, I'd purchase a RR. Immediately. Against Dwarves, you're going to need lots of RR's because the worst thing that can happen for you is to have your turn end early with most of your players still on contact with standing dwarves.

On offense, you should do what Skaven do best, score. Do it as quickly as you can safely do it. The hard part for you will not be offense, it will be defense.

On defense, it will be very important that you understand the Dwarven strategy. Dwarves score slowly. The perfect game for Dwarves is to score once on offense and then start the second half (thus taking up the entire first half with a score.)

Your best bet is to force them to score earlier. If you can get them to score in 5 turns, then you get 3 turns for your own scoring drive.

What forces a dwarven player to score? There are three factors:

1. Get players behind him. Force him to defend all sides of the cage. No need to actually make contact with anyone, stay just outside his range, but well inside yours. This will drive him mad. Best case, two linemen, a storm verman and one gutter runner in scoring position.

2. Don't make a stand. Give him enough room to move up and NOT make contact with your players. Allow him to advance as far forward as he can on his first two turns. You'll find that you can sometimes trick him into over extending because the runners (the one's on his team that normally carry the ball) can out pace their blockers. This sometimes leaves them vulnerable.

3. String him out. The best possible position for you as a skaven player is to have the dwarven players all over the pitch. This means you can easily pick your battles and his cage has callapsed. If a dwarf is off on his own away from his friends, put two players on him and beat him.

Other issues that seem obvious as soon as someone mentions them.

* On defense, put your Rat Ogre in your own endzone. Leave him there until the dwarves are in striking range. If he can get a lot of dwarves on your RO, then your finished. (Wild Animal sucks)

* Block the Guard dwarf first. It makes it easier to do everything else.

* When dwarves make a cage, they often stick too close together. Use the push-back result to get the ball handler exposed, then gang tackle him. He wont be dodging.

How's that for concrete suggestions?

Vigil · Post by **Vigil** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 9:29 am

Purchasing a RR will leave me with only 11 players, one with a niggle. I was planning to buy a backup thrower as a reserve to try and boost my numbers (two deaths in games 2 & 3 hurt me) - you think the RR would serve me better?

zeroalpha · Post by **zeroalpha** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 10:33 am

if you are worried about not having enough players and with 120.000 in the bank you can purchase a thrower and another linerat. 13 players should be heaps.
As for defending some of the best measures have already been mentioned, getting around on all sides of his cage will give him headaches, try channelling the cage towards the sideline, this will limit his options as he looks to come out of the cage late and score.

You can try to really string out his players if you want, this tactic is a little more dangerous as to do it effectively you need to position players in select tackle zones of the dwarfs and allow him to hit you (yes i did actually say that) so that unless he does blitz with those players they will remain stationary. You have to be really careful with this tactic as doing to early has no bebefit as he will just consolidate on later turns and you have achieved nothing except some sore skeven. Instead bide you time and force him to commit and then strike, preferasbly with the rat ogre!

You can attempt the step away defence where you move all your players one square away from him meaning he only gets his blitz as a chance to hit you but with most of your players AG3 this can come undone easily.

All i can say, is play smart, if you are proactive and make him react to your moves then the battle is half over, of course if the dice are against you... your on your own and i accept no responsibility

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 2:26 pm

SCORE

How hard can it be?

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 4:35 pm

Vigil wrote:Purchasing a RR will leave me with only 11 players, one with a niggle. I was planning to buy a backup thrower as a reserve to try and boost my numbers (two deaths in games 2 & 3 hurt me) - you think the RR would serve me better?

Depends on your goal. If you're trying to win this game, you'll need RR's. If you just want to survive, extra players will help a little. Remember, the ideal Dwarven game will only have the score of 1-0. He's going to score on offense (hurting as many players as he can) and then keep you from scoring for 8 turns. You wont have a lot of opportunity to substitute players unless you score. You wont be scoring without those RR's.

Matsu · Post by **Matsu** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 8:13 pm

Something else to consider to help you win this game - a wizard. Simply the threat of the wizard can keep the dwarves from using the sideline, and the wizard gives you a very good chance of popping the ball loose from the cage.

Seriously - the threat of the wizard is much more deadly than any of the spells, and can force the dwarves into making some bad decisions. Make sure you use a garishly painted figure and keep refering to how great an idea it was to buy the wizard against the dwarf team. It'll drive 'em nutz.

Just a thought.

Vigil · Post by **Vigil** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:57 am

heh. that's an interesting idea. Wizards. I'd forgotten about them.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 2:20 pm

Ah, rats v dwarves, classic matchup.

Neo had some good advice but didnt' cover one key aspect that I think is crucial to beating dwarves or winning with skaven in general: Once you've kicked the ball off, get through the line and bum rush his thrower. The most vulnerable part of the Dwarven drive is between picking up the ball and forming the cage. You want to make this as difficult and dangerous as possible.

Get your Gutter runners down there, use GFIs to get TZs on the ball or the ball handler if he's already got it.

Use other players to screen off the runners from the front line.

Get your Foul Appearance player directly in between the runner and the cage. 6 Squares upfield from the runner &/or within 3 squares of an elegible reciever near the line.

A wizard will be incredibly useful to you, Either to Zot the Runner in the backfield after you kick off, or to Fwoomph the cage after it's formed. Personally I'd take the reroll, you should win this match.

The main point here is do not be afraid to overcommit downfield. You'll easily be able to redeploy if the runner beats your blitz. Once you force a backfield error it will be a trivial matter to score. If you can force the Dwarf team to play catch-up then you've got the game won.

MickeX · Post by **MickeX** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 12:09 am

neoliminal wrote:How's that for concrete suggestions?

Perfect! Those were great advice for us mediocre coaches

Micke

D'Arquebus · Post by **D'Arquebus** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 1:10 pm

neoliminal wrote

On offense, you should do what Skaven do best, score. Do it as quickly as you can safely do it. The hard part for you will not be offense, it will be defense.

I would seek to disagree with the first part of this point. If you score quickly on your drive you will hand the Dwarf coach 7 or 6 turns to drive a cage at you and score. This is fairly easy to do even for the slow Dwarf team. If instead you take say 4 turns to score then you give him only 5 or so turns to score back on you.

Now while you are taking your time this doesn't mean stand still or try to form a cage. Just drop your line back to defend the thrower and put some linerats and gutter runners in deep. The constant threat of scoring will reduce pressure on the ball and if you drop back deep into your own half he will take a while to reach you.

Then, the best part is with only 5 or so turns to score he will have to get a wiggle on with his scoring drive. This will mean a looser cage and increase the likelihood of a runner making a dash for it in the open. Then you swoop in and wrap him up, and maybe even score with that gutter runner I know you have sitting deep behind his cage

.

As neo said "defence" is the difficult part. Why make it easier for him by allowing him to possess the ball the majority of the game and dictate the flow of play. Think outside the box and starve him of the clock time he needs to grind you.

Hope this helps some, good luck.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 1:49 pm

The problem with slowing the offence to leave less time for your opponent is that the Dwarf player doesn't care if he has the ball or not. He can still grind.

Personnally the way I look at it - its 7 turns to try to turn the Dwarves over, and if they form the cage, you'll probably need all that just to get a opening.

Vigil · Post by **Vigil** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 6:17 am

update: Actually I ended up playing a human team before saturdays game. Results was a 4-1 win my way with no SIs so I got quite a few SPPs to spread around before the Big Game with the Little Men.

My team has transformed now into

Gutter Runner (Block, Dodge, SKILL)
Linerat (TRAIT/MUTATION)
Gutter Runner (Block, Dodge, Sidestep)
Linerat (Foul Appearance)
Stormvermin +1 ST
Stormvermin
Thrower (N)
4 Linerats
Apothecary
3 RR
12 FF (damn natural 1s)
$80,000

I'm thinking of freebooting a linerat to play the masochist in blocking cages and hiring a wizard leaving me $5,000. Problem is this might be overkill as whatever happens it means this game has cost me $75,000 worth of goods. For now the wizard seems the way to go. Fireballing dwarves into making agility rolls just makes sense. It'll certainly be fun to see a deathroller maybe go down unless he rolls a 6+.

As for skills I was thinking Leader for my Linerat and Pass Block or Diving Catch for my GR seeing as I already have a sidestepper.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:52 am

I haven't read all the other posts, but what worked against me was kicking the ball far, getting some gutter runners between the ball carrier and the rest of the team, tying up that rest with tackle zones (ag2 dodges...), blitzing the ball carrier (preferably with a stormvermin) picking up the ball and scoring.

If you can't get between the ball and the team in time, slow them down, block if you can, dodge if you must, never give them more than 1 or 2 spaces/turn.

On offence you should not experience to much dificulties, either he has to spread his team to thinly fo a deep defence, locking 3 LoS longbeards away Just focus your attack on one side of the field and sacrifice some linerats to keep the players on the other side away. Blitz a hole, pass run score...