A suggestion to improve racial variety in perpetual leagues

[Smeborg]

I am considering play testing the following house rules in our proposed (tabletop) Interminable Perpetual League (IPL):

(1) When taking a Block or Blitz action, a player with both the Piling On and Grab skills may use one of the skills, but not both (his coach's choice).

(2) When taking a Blitz action, a player with both the Piling On and Juggernaut skills may use one of the skills, but not both (his coach's choice).

The main purpose of these rules is to improve the protective power of Fend (more precisely Block/Fend or Wrestle/Fend) against opponents combining ClawPOMB or TacklePOMB with Grab and/or Juggernaut. Sidestep is also somewhat enhanced as a protective skill. These changes in turn will hopefully lead to increased longevity of Block/Fend and Wrestle/Fend players, making a Fend-based development strategy more rewarding in a perpetual league environment, especially at higher TVs. Suitably skilled, both Linemen and positional players might expect to live a little over twice as long as in the CRP. Killer teams will always be popular in a perpetual league environment, but should other teams enjoy greater success (or at least survive) against them, then this may nudge things towards greater racial variety (the spice of BB life).

There is a sort of precedent in the CRP, in that a player may not take both Frenzy and Grab. I did not want to go as far as that.

There would no doubt be other more subtle effects on both play and development. Note that it would still be possible to use Piling On against a Block/Fend or Wrestle/Fend player, by knocking him down into one of your own players with Stand Firm. This of course requires a degree of thought as well as (typically) a greater commitment of resources (players). Deployment and tactics on the Line of Scrimmage would change, especially at higher TV.

It occurs to me that these changes might be worth testing in an online environment, should any group of players feel it worthwhile.

Any comments most welcome.

[swilhelm73]

One concern is that by the numbers agility teams are out producing bash teams in wins. Presumably this will marginally increase their already existing advantage so you may want to pair this with other stacking skills restrictions that agile teams take advantage of like pass/safe throw or NoS/catch etc.

Or alternately just buff fouling and see how that plays out.

[dode74]

How about this: don't match by TV, match by games played.

[Chris]

So I take it in your league a) you match on TV and b) you see strength teams winning more than anyone else? Or is it more everyone takes them as they are afriad of getting CLMBPO players beating them up. You should in that environment if you have players who want to win a lot playing wood elves and skaven. (Especially Skaven!) Fast to skill, immune to claw, fast and high agility. Who seem to lose out the most is hybrid teams that once they lose strength don't have much to compensate with. If you are TV matching though you can stay at a low TV level and avoid them.

If you aren't TV matchin and using fixtures in tabletop the star players and mercs compensate quite a bit, or you can have someone take a spoiler team for a season, something like a secret weapon heavy team, to slce up those nasty stars!

What you propose though i think helps agility teams the most. Dwarves and Orcs are still stuffed at high TVs and other hybrid teams could take wrestle/fend, it would just mean they would be losing an awful lot more to agility teams as now they aren't out blocking them.

[DoubleSkulls]

I can't say I've seen enough Juggernaut or Grab on teams that I'd consider this an effective way to boost Fend, if anything I think Juggernaut probably wants a tiny boost (e.g. the skill cancellation works regardless of the action being performed).

I'd just prevent more than one of PO,CL & MB being used on the same roll to discourage the real problem in the first place, rather than try and improve a counter to it.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Yeah to be fair Smeborg people rarely take Grab or Juggs on a clawpomber.
Fend for sure is not a great counter but can be a decent pick for protecting key players and positioning (better than SF now I believe).
Beastmen need to take Block Clawpomb and realistically get one more skill, usually Tackle.
Other options for them are Guard Frenzy and Jump Up if they get a double.
CD's get to skip the Block and Tackle but always take Guard and Fend is good on them.

[garion]

I can't say I've seen enough Juggernaut or Grab on teams that I'd consider this an effective way to boost Fend, if anything I think Juggernaut probably wants a tiny boost (e.g. the skill cancellation works regardless of the action being performed).

I'd just prevent more than one of PO,CL & MB being used on the same roll to discourage the real problem in the first place, rather than try and improve a counter to it.

+1 there are already too many unnecessary counters for things as it is. Juggernaut being a case in point imo. I would much rather that skill was just very good in its own right than being a counter for Stand Firm, a now rarely taken skill.

[Hitonagashi]

I can't say I've seen enough Juggernaut or Grab on teams that I'd consider this an effective way to boost Fend, if anything I think Juggernaut probably wants a tiny boost (e.g. the skill cancellation works regardless of the action being performed).

I'd just prevent more than one of PO,CL & MB being used on the same roll to discourage the real problem in the first place, rather than try and improve a counter to it.

+1 there are already too many unnecessary counters for things as it is. Juggernaut being a case in point imo. I would much rather that skill was just very good in its own right than being a counter for Stand Firm, a now rarely taken skill.

I'd point out, RandomOracle actually uses 2 different killers on Chuck...Jill is the famous one, but he also uses Stephen, who swopped Frenzy for Juggernaut, presumably specifically to kill fenders.

[Smeborg]

I can't say I've seen enough Juggernaut or Grab on teams that I'd consider this an effective way to boost Fend, if anything I think Juggernaut probably wants a tiny boost (e.g. the skill cancellation works regardless of the action being performed).

I'd just prevent more than one of PO,CL & MB being used on the same roll to discourage the real problem in the first place, rather than try and improve a counter to it.

Interesting idea DS, thanks. (OSPA...)

[Smeborg]

How about this: don't match by TV, match by games played.

I was planning to have no TV restrictions. (Also to allow cards.)

[Smeborg]

Another idea I had was to declare Piling On before rolling for armour. Or more radically, to make Piling On mandatory as well (he, he). Try forming cage corners with that...

[Smeborg]

One concern is that by the numbers agility teams are out producing bash teams in wins.

But that is because of the development choices being made by the bash teams in online perpetual leagues, not because agility teams are inherently better at winning.

[swilhelm73]

One concern is that by the numbers agility teams are out producing bash teams in wins.

But that is because of the development choices being made by the bash teams in online perpetual leagues, not because agility teams are inherently better at winning.

That is an interesting take on things. Is your argument then that skills like PO make teams less likely to win and therefore should be weakened?

[dode74]

It's that there are far more games played by bash teams in online perpetual open leagues. There are several reasons for this, the one I have seen most often being that these leagues are really development grounds for tournament teams. Bash teams tend to "grind" a bit more while agi teams will peak and trough. Therefore it makes sense to "park" your agi team when you get it where you want it to be, while bash teams will take time to get where they want to be, but will do so more reliably. Whatever the reason, the fact is that you are more likely to face a bash than an agi team in online perpetual leagues, and it therefore makes sense to win the bash war and skill to do so. In specialising in this manner you leave yourself open to the fewer agi teams - a dearth of skills such as tackle, tentacles, and other anti-agi skills at high TV is what shows the agi teams as having a high win% - teams just aren't designed to counter them, in general.

[Ullis]

I'm not sure what you're aiming for but I gather that you're trying to restrict bashing somewhat. How about making it so that Piling On can only cause KO's? Fluff being that the hit ain't that hard anymore from the pile on.

The combo would still remove players for a drive. The upside (from non-bashers point of view) is that there would be less player attrition. Blocks without PO would still cause casualties normally.