Talk Fantasy Football

Many people laugh at the notion of fielding a team of skavens from the infested tunnels of the underworld. However to me the skaven are both a fun and well proportioned team to play.

This guide explains some of the possibilities you have with a skaven team as well as listing the threats you should avoid at all costs.

The strengths and weaknesses of the skaven
The skaven are together with the wood elves the fastest team to take the field. All the players have a movement of 7 or better and are therefore able to outrun most other teams. This is without doubt their greatest strength, but this is also where the comparison between wood elves and skaven end. The wood elves have an agility of 4 and thereby ensures that every one of them is a possible thrower or catcher Also all the elves can get the block/dodge combo making them just about the best teams on the field.

So why even bother to field a skaven team? Well the skaven have several advantages that the wood elves do not have.

First of all the average skaven player costs 20,000 gp less than their wood elf equivalent making them cheap to replace and ensures that you do not cry your heart out when one of your linerats die. They are after all only rats.

Second the skaven blitzer – though lacking the wardancers dodge, leap and ag 4 – has access to strength skills allowing him to get the mighty blow skill ensuring more casualties than the wardancer could dream of.

Thirdly the skaven big guy – the rat ogre – although suffering from wild animal has in my opinion several advantages that the treeman of the wood elves do not have. The rat ogre has average movement of 6, which together with his prehensile tail, average (amazing for big guys) agility of 3 and frenzy makes him a great blitzer and even a possible scoring threat (though not a great one). The prehensile tail especially can stop most opponents (even wardancers) as they suddenly dodge with a –1 modifier.

Second to the great speed of the skavens stands the possibilty of getting physical skills. Two to three linerats/blitzers on the line on offence with block/claw combo ensures at least 1 stunned or possible injury result every time you block with them. Also the skavens have a much greater chance of creating a 1-turn-TD scorer than the wood elves in the Very Long Legs skill on their gutterrunners. With a little luck you get Very Long Legs and a movement increase on your gutterrunner making him even better than the wood elf catcher could ever be.

The main weakness of the skaven lies in their average agility. Sure a 3+ dodge isn’t that bad, but compared to an elf it sucks; if for example the opponent gets through your line of defense and protects the ball handler with other players exerting tackle zones, then the elf teams would dodge through on 3+ while you do it on 4+. And as you should always count on the dice being against you – don’t count on 3+ dodges without reroll unless you absolutely have to or until you have moved everything else and it doesn’t matter.

The low/average agility is actually the only real weakness the skavens suffer from. Some might argue that their armour value of a mere 7 is one as well, but let’s look at it for a while. The blitzers have an average AV of 8 and can therefore take some beating. The gutterrunners shouldn’t be blocked that often or if they do, then they should get the block skill first and thereby get secured. The Rat Ogre can hold his own as only few people with a sane mind would willingly step up and try to block a wild animal. That leaves linerats and who cares if 1-2 buys it. At that cost you just breed some more.

Some might also argue that the rat ogre being a wild animal and the rules not allowing you to spend rerolls on that double skull hit is a great disadvantage, but it doesn’t happen that often (does it – it does? Welcome to the club) and the other skills the rat ogre possesses more than make up for it.

Buying your starting lineup
With the low cost of your rats you could field a team of 12 players and still be able to get 2 rerolls, an apothecary and 9 fan factor with money to spare. For example:

2 Blitzers 180
1 Gutterrunner 80
1 Thrower 70
8 Linerats 400
2 Rerolls 120
Apothecary 50
9 Fan factor 90

Total 990

As reassuring this lineup is somehow I cannot bring myself to field it. Starting without a rat ogre doesn’t give you that edge in the first few games that you most likely will need (and let’s face it; skaven should have a wild animal with them at all times) and starting with only 1 gutterrunner spells doom, as you can rest assured that your opponent will hunt him down.

Instead I choose to start with the following:

2 Blitzers 180
2 Gutterrunners 160
1 Thrower 70
5 Linerats 250
1 Rat Ogre 130
2 Rerolls 120
9 Fan factor 90

Total 1000

This lineup gives you only 11 players and no apothecary and could result in 1 or 2 lost rats. However it gives you a rat ogre, who can bring down the casualties on the line of scrimage, two gutterrunners to increase your range and possibility to score and 2 rerolls (you will need them).

If you don’t want to risk loosing any rats in your first game, then you can easily sacrifice a reroll for an apothecary. However considering the fact that rerolls cost 120,000 gp. after starting your team and that you can buy an apothecary after your first game, it is by far better to buy 2 rerolls and wait for an apothecary until after game 1 and if lady luck is against you, you just start up a new team. You could also sacrifice 5 fan factor points for an apothecary, but since noone wants to be at the receiving end of a pit invasion I wouldn’t recommend it.

Advancing your team
Once the star player points begin rolling in the skavens become even more interesting especially when you begin rolling those doubles.

Stormvermin er your main blockers. With block, tackle and claw/mighty blow they bring down almost anyone while making sure that they don’t get up again.
The first skill you should get these guys is mighty blow. Don’t hang out for claw as mighty blow works almost just as often and that +1 to the injury roll will get your blitzer just as many SPP as claw will. After that get tackle, so you can bring down those pesky catchers and wardancers. Doubles should be spent on claw (unless you already have mighty blow) and Horns to give him strength 4 when blitzing or dodge to make him a better defensive player.

Gutterrunners are possible to advance in many different ways. Try to create two offensive runners and two defensive runners.
Your offensive runners should get block, sprint, sure feet, side step. Of course hopefully you roll a double and get Very Long Legs and then sprint making a 1-turn-TD scorer. If you don’t roll any doubles on any one of your 4 gutterrunners, I would recommend firing one and getting a new one. In my opinion skavens should have at least one of these devils as that extra TD In the last turn can make the difference between a win and a loss. However remember to only use him when it’s necessary. One turn touchdown scorers have a tendency to get all the star player points.
Your defensive runners should get block as soon as possible so they don’t go down that often. After that give them Pass Block and Side Step. If you roll doubles try getting Big Hand as there is nothing like a gutterrunner stepping into 3 opposing tacklezones, pick up the ball on 2+, dodging out again on 2+, and then throwing the ball on 2+.
Catch is an ok skill, but since they catch the ball on 2+, I would rather take a different skill and then use a team reroll in those few cases where it goes wrong.

Throwers should be groomed to just like any other thrower on any other team. Accurate and Safe Throw first. Doubles should be spent on Strong Arm and Nerves of Steel to enable them to get within a better throwing range. Big Hand is also nice, but not absolutely necessary because of the sure hands skill. An agility increase would be nice, but then again wouldn’t it always

Linerats can be quite fun to develop. The best thing to do is to develop different kinds of linerats.
Offensive blockers – These should get block and tackle and hopefully claw. They are for the line of scrimmage in your attack fase. They are garanteed to bring down og injuring most players.
Defensive blockers – These go on the line of scrimmage in defense and should be able to stand against something. Block is a first choice, Tackle your second. Doubles should go for Stand Firm and Dodge. They seldom last very long, so don’t get too attached to them.
Dirty Players – Dirty Player (duh!) and Block is nice of course. Doubles can get you Dodge and Very Long Legs enabling you to get to the right players you want out of there.
Kicker – Kick is an extremely useful skill. Skaven – besides wood elves – are one of the teams that are best at taking advantage of a blitz on the kick-off table and with the kick skill, you can make sure that you get the ball yourself. Doubles should be spent on Guard or you can try out some different physical abilities – Tentacles is actually quite a good skill as it makes sure that even wardancers will find it hard to leave your tackle zone.

Rat Ogres are born blitzers with their movement of 6, strength of 5 and frenzy. However because of Wild Animal and not being able to use rerolls on big guys it is quite necessary to get block as soon as possible. Other nice skills include Tackle and Guard. If you roll a double I would recommend getting dodge to make him an even better blitzer as well as harder to bring down on defense.

Enjoy and remember: It’s not just a game – it’s Blood Bowl.

Ill agree with you about the rat ogres. In my last game against a skaven team, his rat ogre kill 2 of my norse and KO'd another 2. His rat ogre then went on to gain +1S. Gutter runners are also very nasty little blighters. Their high M+AG makes then speed daemons on the feild. My friend plays with a rat ogre and 2 gutter runners in his lineup, and as you try to take out the rat ogre you dont see the gutter runners legin it across the TD line.
Problem is that gutter runners go 'SPLAT' far to easy.

Some nice ideas, I'd have to agree with most of it.

My personal preference is to build 3 GRs for defence and 1 for offence. Currently I'm moving towards the 4 GRs for defence philosophy. I used to sack GRs in order to get a 1 turner but under v1.3 you just never have enough money to indulge that luxury, I'd rather stick with dauntless on a double and then get strip ball or horns on a second double. 1 turn scorers waste too many skills specialising on one small aspect for my taste. Redundancy is a Skaven watchword.

Block and Sidestep are my preferred first two GR skills, they slot into so many roles once they've got those 3 basic skills. There's a multitude of other skills that stack nicely with them too, depending on your league. Passblock, Shadow and Diving Tackle all spring to mind.

I also have to say I think you're mental starting a team with a Wild Animal. I can barely justify having one on my team now and it's at TR 200ish. a WA on a starting team will lose you games, easy. You need to have the option not to play him with the current WA rules.

I like your skill choices generally. I tend to take tackle on linerats and get guard for storm vermin, simply because you can't guarantee that you can get it anywhere else and Skaven can really hurt for blocking strength. I've been going for FA on linerat doubles lately but claw is an equally good choice, as is guard. I've experimented with tentacles before but didn't find them that useful.

I can't agree with the Rat Ogre either. They WILL cost you turns and they're awful easy for an opposing coach to manipulate. I'm like Marcus. I can hardly justify having one on an experienced team. I certainly can't recommend one on a rookie team.

That said, I like them and use them effectively. They definately aren't a blitzer, though. They look like one but if one tries and use him like that, one will soon find yourself in hot water.

Tackle on linerats instead of storm vermin
Marcus, I agree that guard on the storm vermin is a good idea, as you most correctly state you never know if you roll that double on the linerats.
After all the linerats are just as good blitzer as the storm vermin with block and tackle.

Wild animal from the start or not?
I think that you, Marcus and snotsngrots, are both right and wrong.

First off: there is no question that the wild animal trait are the worst of all the negative traits because you can't control it. This will at some point cost you turnovers. It ought to be revised so that you didn't have to start with him. This way it is more controlled like bonehead and really stupid.

However not starting with a ST5 player will give you a hard time against all those teams with ST4 and ST5 players. Also a ST5 player on the LOS will lower your casualty rate. If I chose not to start with a Rat Ogre, then I would never buy one at all as bringing a Wild Animal without any skills on field against a high level team ensures that he will gain skill very very slowly. It is in my opinion much better to bring him on field against low level teams with no or few skills. This gives him more much needed star player points faster than against the experienced team.

The key to playing a wild animal before having any skills on the poor critter is controlling who he gets to block/blitz the following turn. Some examples:
- Don't blitz into a large group of opponents as they will only stand still and wait until your turn, where you have to block with 2 dice in your opponents favor. If this happens, be sure to place tackle zones on the opposing players.
- When blocking og blitzing - take out players with low strength values or few block related skills (catchers and throwers). As these are also among the most important players on the other team, this works out nice.
- When not forced to block with him, consider if you should blitz with him at all. Even better than blitzing is moving him to protect the ball carrier or intercepting opposing blitzer exerting tackel zones (remember his prehensile tail).
- If you find yourself rolling double skulls a lot, give him Pro as his second skill (block still the first skill). Now you reroll 50% out of the 10% of the times you roll a double skull on 2 dice. These are not bad odds.

I disagree that he is not a blitzer. I have used my rat ogre as a blitzer from game 1 and he has an average injury rating at 1 per game. My total is 3.2 per game. His job however is not just injure most players every game - it is to push (and hopefully knock over) opposing players out of your gutterrunners way using frenzy and exert tackle zones with his prehensile tail.

Are you really suggesting putting the Wild Animal on the LoS? Presumably joined by two linerats? If so, isn't your opponent simply going to knock over the linerats, surround your wild animal with the appropriate number of players so that when your wild animal takes his first turn he has to block with two-dice defenders choice? (E.g., surround the Rat Ogre with four linemen, or three chaos warriors, or two mummies) There would then be a very decent chance you will roll a skull or a POW/skull and miss the whole of your next turn and so your opponent effectively gets two turns in a row.

Cheers,
Martyn

Sure your opponent could do that. However placing your rat ogre and 2 linerats side by side in the middle and a couple rats 1-2 steps downfield your are forced to block your rat ogre away or else he will have to dodge through that turn.

However it is always a question of who your opponent is and how their playing style is. Not considering teams with a max movement of 6 you always have the possiblity of getting on turn 1, form a pocket of tackle zones around your catcher and then scoring on turn 2. Skaven, elves, and human excel at this (especially wood elves).

Are you playing against a team with slow movement and high strength, then you might consider placing your rat ogre back field ready to blitz instead.

I tend to like him on the LOS. In part because my regular opponents block everything on the LOS down and try to run through on turn 1 and wild animal or not; AV8 and ST5 will save you some casualties.

cani wrote:Sure your opponent could do that. However placing your rat ogre and 2 linerats side by side in the middle and a couple rats 1-2 steps downfield your are forced to block your rat ogre away or else he will have to dodge through that turn.

I don't understand how the rats 1-2 steps downfield help. Let's suppose I am playing humans against your rats. You have the two linerats and the rat ogre on the line of scrimmage. I place two linemen adjacent to both linerats:

__LRL__
_HB_BH_

The L indicates a linerat, R is the rat ogre, H is a human, and B is also a human. I block the linerats with the humans labelled B (and with any luck I knock you over). I then move the humans labelled H so that I have the rat ogre surrounded by these four humans. I then do anything else I like with my remaining 7 players. Your turn, you block one of my humans and with any luck suffer a turnover.

How do your other linerats help? What does the "dodge through that turn" mean?

Cheers,
Martyn

What I mean is that I place my defence as such:

___ __LR__ ___
___ L____L ___
_L_ S____S _T_
_G_ ______ _G_

S being a storm vermin, G a gutterrunner, and T a thrower.

Now if you want to getthrough on turn 1, then you have to go through the middle blocking down at least 1 linerat and the rat ogre. After that you have to blitz one of the next linerats on the second line. This is the only thing that opens a hole in the defense. Everything else is covered in tackle zones.

Now sure if you play a slow team with high enough strength, then you wont get through no matter what, so you could place a lot of players around my rat ogre. However what is the choice anyway? You block down my rat ogre and have a chance of injuring him or you place player around him hoping that I am unlucky with the dice and block myself down. What happens if I'm not unlucky? Then I have blocked down a player on your team with migthy blow.

Of course it is a matter of taste in playing style, but I would never take that chance if I was attacking. I would want to be the one to block first. Remember that though there is a higher chance of a bad result on the block dice - it is not a given.

What martynq is trying to point out is that by placing him on the LOS, in such a way as you suggest, it is way to easy for your opponent to get a couple players on him so that he must make a 2 die opponents choice block on the first action of the next turn.

You do understand that a WA MUST throw a block if there is someone standing in an adjacent square don't you? He can't dodge away and, since he must go first, it doesn't matter how close your linerats are, they can't move up to remove the opposing assists. That and WAs never receive assists.


I'm sorry if you already do understand this but it looks like you're suggesting otherwise. Your example is a little unclear or incomplete, I'm not sure which.

edited spelling and punctuation

Yes - I do understand the rules regarding Wild Animal.

Again - setting up of course depends on your playing style but most off all your opponents playing style.

The opponents I usually meet don't play so that they have to count on a turnover in order to win. Instead they block your LOS down and run deep i turn 1 creating a sort of wall of players and tackle zones around their ball carrier.

Again, yes it is possible for your opponent to place players around him in order to make sure that you block with 2 dice against you. However this type off play needs at least 4 players from the opposing team in your rat ogres tackle zone. This is 3 players less to protect the ball carrier.

Now it's my turn. I have 2 dice against me. That is a 1 chance in 3 to go down myself (and if you have the block skill only 1 in 6). These are not great odds, but they are not bad either. And when the rat ogre 2 times out off three doesn't go down but instead blocks your player down with mighty blow, I have a free run at the ball carrier because the players left to secure the ball carrier are way to few to protect him properly.

Again - it depends on the playing style of your opponent, but I garantee you that if you put 4 players or more next to my rat ogre and he doesn't go down, then I will get to the ball and will score on your down. On offense you cannot afford to play your whole strategy around a wild animal blocking himself down. It just doesn't happen that often.

cani wrote: Again - it depends on the playing style of your opponent, but I garantee you that if you put 4 players or more next to my rat ogre and he doesn't go down, then I will get to the ball and will score on your down. On offense you cannot afford to play your whole strategy around a wild animal blocking himself down. It just doesn't happen that often.

Imagine that you have a break away GR with the ball, a couple of squares short of the endzone. Your opponent can't blitz them in his turn, but can get into a position to blitz him next turn. His only chance of stopping you scoring is to swarm the RO.

BTW without block the odds of failing a 1/2 die block are 55%, and with block 30%. Those are pretty damn good odds of stopping you getting a turn at all. Also I haven't factored in the frenzy (you have to follow and you have to make a 2nd block) so you are looking at even worse odds than that.

IMO, against decent opposition RO's are a liability.

cani wrote:What I mean is that I place my defence as such:

___ __LR__ ___
___ L____L ___
_L_ S____S _T_
_G_ ______ _G_

Unless i am missing something obvious if that is your line of defence my first move would be to get a two die block on each of your LOS Linerats. Even a pushback would suffice, then leave the Rat Ogre unblocked with his next turn starting up against 4 Players, giving me instant choice of two die on your first action, from there i would proceed downfield with the constant advantage that your Rast Ogre has a great chance of ending your turn before you've even stood up any prone players.

yours seems a huge risk strategy which could leave your team open to unreplied 2die blocks, and AV 7 does not hold up to well in the long run.

To some point i have to agree with cani .. , me and a friend plays in a small league where he's coaching a Skaven team , he's using 2 rat ogres(our rules , so don't bother on comment that ! Thx. That is only facts)
Althou as he don't like the WA he sometimes says that he should play better without them. I as an opponent can't really agree to that ,, he's in 2th place in the league .. and i find very hard to belive he would be there without the rat ogres ...
If he started without them i would say he could have started off better , but then he would started losing a lot of players !
Skavens are quick players putting in strengh in a skaven team is an ensurace to not stand totally flat footed against a strength team ..
He could be both good or bad for you ,, but he still binds up atleast one opponet (whois eventually gonna get hurt!).
And a not to dumb coach wouldn't let the opponent swarm him ..
for my friends team , he would have lost a lot more players than he has if he didn't had tha rat ogre(s) as i have to cover him not to get to hurt by him .. and it costs players to bind him up.
And say i bind him up with 4 strenght 3 players there is still the same chance for him to be lucky as it is for being unlucky .. and if he get's lucky he only have to move 1 or 2 rats in to solve the problem with a tacklezone, and after that just beat me into oblivion , and score with the games fastest player

And as a closure .. how the F..k can the Orc team in our league be so lousy ?
6 games and still not 1 win .. (others are High Elvs, Skaven , Humans)
And they still got 4B 4 BOB an Ogre and a St3 gobbo

Orc coach is tossing goblins isn't he. Too many orc coaches rely on that to score rather than using it as the seldom used trick play that it should be.

About the RO, I can't see puting him on the LOS either, but if it works for you, enjoy. My Orcs would have a blast against it though. The last game I played was against a skaven with a wicked RO. Block, Piling On, Razor sharp fangs, and 9 casulties out of the last five games. This guy is the reason we are considering instituting the bounty system in the league.


He spent almost the entire game on his a$$ thanks to a my Ogre and a black orc. Had to casulty him twice to get rid of him...darn apoth.

Yes it did tie up a couple of players, but that's nothing compared with taking out his only reliable causlty machine. Besides the Skaven AV of 7 almost ensures that you wont be outnumbered long.

Both skaven coaches in our league started using their ROs on the LOS. Both no longer do it for the exact reasons the above guys have mentioned, namely Wild Animal, no team rerolls, and smart opposing coaches.