First Elf skill dodge or block ??

[neverdodge]

Hi everybody,

What do yuo think in general is better to take as first skill on line elf, dodge or block ?

I know there s no single answer, i just wanna know what argument you got for and against.

thx

[DaFoola]

I'm generally tempted to go with block. Dodge may play somewhat more to your strength, but an AG4 player who also has block is a very difficult thing to deal with, as many players will be at a disadvantage trying to shut down such a player either with blocks or TZs. And it gives you someone who can hold off big, nasty players like orcs a bit better.
Of course, I don't coach elves that much, but this is how it seems to me.

[Bevan]

In a short league I played in we were allowed to give all players 1 starting skill, so my line-elves mostly had Block or Dodge. I found the Block players much more useful for attacking and defending and now always get Block for several before any with dodge.

However, Dodge players are handy when receiving because you can put three on the line and dodge them away without using up rerolls. They don't need Block for this. They are also useful when getting the ball through those tiny gaps in the defence.

So I suggest the first 3 linemen get Block, then get some dodge players or other interesting skills.

[Haar]

It depends strongly on your playing style. I picked dodge first, and am really happy about it. Of course, I was playing DE and had access to blitzers for my blockers. But Block and Dodge are about the same when your opponent hits you (except when they have tackle), and if you're doing a lot of hitting (more than just a blitz), you might be asking for a beating. The reroll helps a lot. Combine Dodge with AG4, and you have a serious threat. You can reliably get off the front line, and even better, frequently sneak past people. Dodging "through" an opponent is usually a 3+ roll (into one TZ) then a 2+ roll (into the clear). I will take this chance (after all the important stuff is over, of course) if I have a guy with Dodge, and it succeeds pretty often (3+ with a reroll is 1/9 failure, and 2+ with a reroll is 1/36 failure). Of course, if you burn the dodge RR in the first dodge, then you can stop running too.

Also keep in mind that Dodge frequently acts like sure feet. You can shave a square of of your run if you go through the corner of that TZ, getting closer to the receiver, or just getting where you want to go. Rather than go around and go for it (2+), just go through and dodge (2+ with Dodge).

So I got dodge first (I've got a line of 3 dodging dark elf linemen and a spare) before I digressed into other skills. But again, I bought a few blitzers, so I can make an offensive hit with block when I need it.

[Marcus]

I tend to alternate. First skill is generally kick, after that block, then dodge, then alternating from there.

Main reason I pick block first is to ensure I can get my first block/blitz in when I'm recieving at the best possible odds. After that, I like having dodgers around to ensure I have the TZs and the assists where I need them.

Marcus

[wesleytj]

that's very much the way I do it....but it's about 2:1 ratio of block to dodge for first skill. But I like to have a good mix. Then whatever you gave them for their 1st skill, the other for the 2nd generally.

[Zombie]

Neither. I try to specialize my players right on their first skill so they can be more use to the team. This works especially well with elves, because having only one player who can do one thing very well is usually enough, since they can easily get anywhere on the field to do the required job.

So as a first skill, i go with a mix of kick, dirty player (at least two), pass block, strip ball, diving tackle, leap, etc. Only after they gained one skill do i start considering block or dodge.

[Vesticle]

Another thing to add is that after you go a couple games with elves, if you can avoid casualties, a lot of your line elves won't be playing much anymore as they get replaced by the position players. Block or Dodge are both useful in the short term, but they aren't as useful for subs. However, a lineman some of the specialized skills can be useful to bring in during specific situations: things like kick, leader if you get doubles, DP (I like to have one sitting on the sidelines just as a threat), pass block if you face a passing team, tackle if you face an Amazon or stunty team, etc...

David

[wesleytj]

well sure i always make a few specialists too, but generally you want block/dodge guys to NOT DIE. Elves are expensive, and keeping them alive is key to long term team growth.

But yes, I always have a kicker, and a DP or two, and so on as well. And then of course there's doubles rolls to consider.

But within the framework of the question I was kinda overlooking all of that.

[Korhil]

I take Dodge First.

Reasons:
When being Blocked, Dodge is more useful than Block unless they have Tackle. Majority of other teams players wont have Block, so if they hit you and you have Dodge, they can only Push Pack on the Dodge result, or take you down at the expense of a Turn Over. Who cares if your player got nailed if they had a Turn Over.
Where as if you take Block, now they can take you down 1/3 of the time and neither is a Turn Over.
You dont need Block to throw Blocks, with Dodge you make your Blocks 2 Dice and your safe enough.
Dodge has 2 Uses to Blocks 1. Your players can get them where you want them to be.

If people take Tackle before Block to 'try' counter all your dodge then you are back to wear you started, but you have the advantage because LineElves will get a 2nd skill before an AG 3 Lineman will.

And, in the Extreme case of an Elf Team with Dodge all arround vs an Elf Team with Block all arround, the Dodge team has the edge.

If all the other teams were Dwalves or Chaos Dwalves then I'd reconsider.

---Korhil

[DoubleSkulls]

If you mean High Elf/Dark Elf then I'd say Block, but that's my preferred style of play. Wood Elves is more debateable. That extra point of Av makes a difference, as does access to War Dancers.

The difference between block and dodge for keeping your player on his feet is small. Dodge is probably better against undeveloped teams, or leagues where coaches don't take much tackle.

Once your opponents are more developed then Block is better as it can't be countered by another skill and its quite likely you'll get hit by someone with block anyway.

Block is more of an offensive skill than dodge. It allows you to make 2 die blocks with little chance of turning over. Now given that at best you'll only have ~2 players with block at the start of the game you'll need at least a couple more blockers to give you a decent chance in the line and breaking down cages etc.

Dodge basically improves manuverability of your player allowing him to get away to lend assists elsewhere and maybe open up scoring opportunities.

IMO High and Dark Elves need Blockers to be able to break down opposition attacks and get into the cage. A good enemy is one on the floor, the best is one in the dugout.

Wood Elves, thanks to leaping War Dancers are less dependent on breaking down the opposition, so may find dodge more useful.

Ian

[Korhil]

The First lineElf that gets a skill I give Block, but thats because I only star with 1 WarDancer/Dragon Warrior/Blitzer.

But, otherwise I take Dodge as said before.

The other benefit of taking Dodge first is that it allows for more Flexible development.
If you get an AG increase you can take Pass Block and have Dodge, AG 5, Pass Block... as opposed to Block, AG5, Leap but this Player is still begging for Dodge or Pro to make full use of his extra mobility.
Dodge, ST4, Block... could be better developed with Block first into Block, ST 4, Tackle. But BloDge ST 4 is a great Ball Carrier anyway and nothing to complain about. Also, ST increases are so rare.
A Player with Block who rolls MA would rather take a skill (Dodge probablly) but with Dodge, MA, Shadowing you have a player with a purpose.

Generally as a first Skill Dodge allows for more effective Development of the Player and as a first skill allows the Player to score more and get to the 2nd skill, which could just be the Block you that you were intending to take first, but taking Block first makes the 2nd skill slower to reach.

---Korhil

[neverdodge]

i thank you all for the rplies, btw i was asking for elves in general cauz i like to play dark or wood.

And of course, i ll not give blodge to all my line elf and i like diversity, i was just curious about wich of those skill are more usefull at the start of the league, now i know it seem to depend on my style of play, on the team i m facing... the odds seems to be 50-50..

again, many thx

[DoubleSkulls]

I suspect we play Elves very differently, and these comments do not apply to Wood Elves.

The other benefit of taking Dodge first is that it allows for more Flexible development

Sorry I don't see this at all. Developing Elves I'm looking for most of my line elves to develop into Block/Dodge and Block/Tackle players so I always want Block.

I find, as a single skill Block is more useful than Dodge. Block by itself allows you to make "safe" 2 die blocks/blitzes with a better chance of taking your opponent down. Blockers sit on the line with about as much additional protection as dodge. Dodge occassionally saves a TRR, but with 2+ dodges this isn't very often.

If you get a stat increase it doesn't matter since there are different paths available. If a core part of your teams is an AG5 pass blocker then fine, but I don't see the need for them in a team. IMO an AG5 Block Leap is much more useful player. +ST is better with Block 1st and +MA is an argument either way. If you go Dodge, +MA, Shadowing how are you any better than Block, +MA, Shadowing? The blocker has a better chance of staying next to his target, the dodger a better chance of getting there in the first place.

but taking Block first makes the 2nd skill slower to reach.

How would you justify this? As I see it one or two players with dodge are more likely to get TD's but beyond the first couple its not going to make too much difference.

Block on the other hand makes it far more likely you'll pick up a few SPPs from casualties that you wouldn't have gained at all. So overall your team will get more SPPs.

That all presumes that dodge doesn't significantly increase the number of TD's scored more than Block.

Ian

[Korhil]

Dwalves/Chaos Dwalves played by a good coach should beat an Elf Team until the Elves Rating is quite alot higher. Which happens by nature of the Elves scoring more TD's and Passing more than Dwalves can. So, taking Block just for the reason it doesn't get 'cancled' out isn't good enough unless there are a greater than normal amount of Dwalf teams.

Having said that (which in itself people will disagree with)

For Wood Elves Dodge is definately the way to go.
For High Elves & Dark Elves, its less clear.

Dark Elves have access to 4 Blitzers with Block, so I'd consider the team to want more Dodge from their Line Elves. Tho, I also give 2 of the Blitzers Dodge as the first skill, and 2 Tackle first. Counting the Witch Elves who will get Block first thats 4 BloDge players quickly and having 2 with Tackle gives you 2 Defensive Blitzers which I find more useful than getting 6 BloDge players faster.

For High Elves, you start with no Dodge, so thats the reason to get it. Tho only having access to 2 Blitzers with Block means you'll want to grab Block for the 1st Line Elf skill... possibly the second. But I'd ride on Dodge after that due to seeing the skill as more useful.


Ian -
I dont really buy into the Block making it safer to Block.
We likely have different play styles. With my Dodge I'll get outta their so they can only Blitz to hit me. If they chose to stand next to me at the end of the turn in hope of getting to throw a Block the following turn I'll consider arranging a FEW 2 Dice Blocks (NOT making sure I throw the maximum possible Blocks available each turn) so that assuming only Push Backs they have no Blocks the following turn. This can be arranged by Dodging alot (2+ with a Re-Roll) so get into an Assisting position that wont be near a player after a Push Back.
(Obviously there have to be exceptions where I will hold a player in a Tackle zone in order to keep the Ball Safer or increase the chance of getting in the following turn, but thats the exception.)

---Korhil