Looking for good Nurgle resources/advice

[mattgslater]

Yowza. Why's somebody gotta be right? Break it up already, and let's get back to substance.

Really, the BB universe is a vast one, because there are many different categories of factors going into discussions of the relative merits of playstyles, not all of which are apparent to any given person at any given time. Format, environment, individual temperament. I mean, read the last two pages and you don't even need to discuss the content to say that Smeborg prefers Stand Firm and Carnis prefers Piling On.

Can we get back to productiveness? Life's too short to argue about how somebody else should be playing games in some other league, if what they're doing is working for them. The productive questions involve how what works for you works for you, and maybe whether you'd have more success doing something else, not whether or not what you do that works for you is "better" (in some hypothetical Platonic sense) than what the other guy does that works for him. Rather, we can establish that there are two builds that have yielded success in different environments, and then discuss the particulars of each.

[Purplegoo]

It’s rare I read this part of this forum. I popped in over a cup of tea the other day and found numerous nuggets of advice I strongly thought were ‘wrong’ or silly (some of which has made it into the ‘Worst advice‘ thread I see), reminded myself why I don’t visit (it‘s not up to me to jump down people‘s throats), and read a bit of this thread.

As someone that hasn’t followed it all from day one, and has only recently read the last (say) 10 pages, you know what Gents, it might be time to draw a line under it all? I don’t think any of you, or the thread, really benefit from going round and around arguing the same point. It’s all getting a bit…. Unseemly?

For what it’s worth, I’ve found out first hand over the last couple of years that the game on FUMBBL is a different animal to playing TT, be it in a typical league or over a weekends’ tournament. I’m still not sure that I’ve shaken off all of my engrained internet habits and altered my style of play enough to be 100% optimal over short distance leagues or low TV events (I‘m a mid-to high TV bunny, it‘s what my environment has made me) , but I’m trying. It generally involves accepting more risk, as it goes. I've seen people struggle for a bit going the other way too over the last three months or so. Whilst I’m no Nurgle coach (I’ve never really got the bug for Beastman teams, or Chaos Pact, so all of this kill Vs. frustrate is pretty beyond me, the Elves still try to run away whilst they‘re alive, either way), I am willing to bet that the goalposts are slightly different in each different environment, and that there are multiple routes to success; even though I will admit, the killer builds seem to me to be the route of least resistance.

So, in summary, I’m a mega hippy, and it saddens me we’ve not reached ‘agree to disagree’ yet. Can’t we all be friends, and all be right?

[Jimmy Fantastic]

I think Carnis has drawn a line under the whole sorry affair rather well with his last post !

[mattgslater]

I don't. I think Smeborg has a point and Carnis is missing it, which is a shame because he's a really smart guy who can contribute positively when he's talking about what he knows as opposed to speculating about how they ought to do it on the other side of the world.

The "Finnish School" is viable in any environment (and it's easy!), but it's not nearly as dominant in scheduled leagues as it is in TV-matching formats, it's not suitable for all coaches' personal temperaments, and it's not the only way to win with a slogger team, or even always the best. Smeborg is advocating the practical version of its diametric opposite, which fares pretty well against varied opposition. Carnis says it struggles when it has to run into the blender over and over; while I don't have direct experience, it wouldn't surprise me if he were totally right.

Jimmy, here's something to chew on, so you can still offer your considerable on-pitch wisdom with minimal risk of sounding like a jerk. I know you like the role of "obviousman" but it's a weak position: if anybody has any personal evidence that conflicts with your razor wit, you have to defend your position against the other guy's lying eyes. Even if you're right, you lose. Works great when you have a deductive argument with an a priori conclusion, but that ain't this.

What's the relationship between Block, MB, Claw and Guard in "slayer" Nurgle Warrior development?

[Corvidius]

It’s rare I read this part of this forum. I popped in over a cup of tea the other day and found numerous nuggets of advice I strongly thought were ‘wrong’ or silly (some of which has made it into the ‘Worst advice‘ thread I see), reminded myself why I don’t visit (it‘s not up to me to jump down people‘s throats), and read a bit of this thread.

As someone that hasn’t followed it all from day one, and has only recently read the last (say) 10 pages, you know what Gents, it might be time to draw a line under it all? I don’t think any of you, or the thread, really benefit from going round and around arguing the same point. It’s all getting a bit…. Unseemly?

For what it’s worth, I’ve found out first hand over the last couple of years that the game on FUMBBL is a different animal to playing TT, be it in a typical league or over a weekends’ tournament. I’m still not sure that I’ve shaken off all of my engrained internet habits and altered my style of play enough to be 100% optimal over short distance leagues or low TV events (I‘m a mid-to high TV bunny, it‘s what my environment has made me) , but I’m trying. It generally involves accepting more risk, as it goes. I've seen people struggle for a bit going the other way too over the last three months or so. Whilst I’m no Nurgle coach (I’ve never really got the bug for Beastman teams, or Chaos Pact, so all of this kill Vs. frustrate is pretty beyond me, the Elves still try to run away whilst they‘re alive, either way), I am willing to bet that the goalposts are slightly different in each different environment, and that there are multiple routes to success; even though I will admit, the killer builds seem to me to be the route of least resistance.

So, in summary, I’m a mega hippy, and it saddens me we’ve not reached ‘agree to disagree’ yet. Can’t we all be friends, and all be right?

+1 to that.

[Smeborg]

FINAL SUMMARY AND CLOSURE
------------------------------
It has been suggested that we agree to disagree and close the debate (merits of slayer vs. stymie). I was one of the first to suggest this, on the basis that we appear to have no common ground on which to agree or disagree! It now seems clear that this is the case, and I am more than happy to cease the argument forthwith.

In defense of Carnis, Jimmy and others who advocate vocally for slayer Nurgle, they play in a different environment to me, and in a single style which appears to have a high status in that environment. I can readily understand that they will not appreciate the relative merits of stymie Nurgle until such time as they play in that style (or at least play against accurately developed and well coached stymie Nurgle). The likelihood of either happening in their environment appears slight. It is unlikely that I will play in their environment any time soon (or they in mine). However, if one or both of them are going to the World Cup, then there is a slim chance that we might meet at the table.

I accept other coaches' experience as valid and interesting, and do not feel in any way threatened by it. All I ask is that other coaches return the courtesy.

Hope that helps.

[Carnis]

FINAL SUMMARY AND CLOSURE
------------------------------
It has been suggested that we agree to disagree and close the debate (merits of slayer vs. stymie). I was one of the first to suggest this, on the basis that we appear to have no common ground on which to agree or disagree! It now seems clear that this is the case, and I am more than happy to cease the argument forthwith.

Ok!

But then, if you were done, why write this condescending and 'seemingly neutral' (your signature style) 2nd chapter 'in my defence' or at all?

In defense of Carnis, Jimmy and others who advocate vocally for slayer Nurgle, they play in a different environment to me, and in a single style which appears to have a high status in that environment. I can readily understand that they will not appreciate the relative merits of stymie Nurgle until such time as they play in that style (or at least play against accurately developed and well coached stymie Nurgle). The likelihood of either happening in their environment appears slight. It is unlikely that I will play in their environment any time soon (or they in mine). However, if one or both of them are going to the World Cup, then there is a slim chance that we might meet at the table.

I accept other coaches' experience as valid and interesting, and do not feel in any way threatened by it. All I ask is that other coaches return the courtesy.

[DiddleySquat]

It pays off to read the thread from the start again. You'll notice Jimmy Fantastic on page 1 with a remarkable quote "Nurgle are an awful team. You should only use them if you really love the idea of them, and don't mind losing!". Keep that in mind when you read his posts.
Carnis and Smeborg have been positively contributing from the start, but each had a different philosophy and development ideas. You'll also notice that both contributors have evolved in their vision on how to optimally develop the team.

My n00bie insights:
- Nurgle has something no other team has, with DP, FA and regen. Chaos comes close but will never have those 3 skills. Yet with GSM access and equal STR, Nurgle can develop as bashy as a Chaos team. However, DP and FA offer a unique option that no other team has and that's a really dedicated stymie style. This is off the beaten path BB though.
- Stymie style requires a very focused play. Dedication to optimal positioning is key. You're actually aiming for a 1-0 win, but a classic 2-1 grind is your back-up plan.
- A hybrid style is tempting, but if you look at Carnis or Smeborg's team development ideas throughout the thread, you will see that actually the idea of either a pure bash or stymie style gains ground, and hybrid builds are abandoned. If you look at Carnis' teams and playing tactics (in FUMBBL), you'll see the same dedication and focus, just on a different strategy.
- This is understandable if you remember that the Nurgle roster is so weak on the offensive side. You have really little room for error, so either you dedicate the team to gaining a numerical advantage and building field dominance from there, or you focus on cage advancement and positional match-ups where Stand Firm assures you keep those positions.

As for the 'proof' either camp advocates: I couldn't find any real attempt at stymie style on FUMBBL so there is no valid team to compare Carnis' slayer team with. On the other hand, Smeborg's experience is also in a rather small playing pool, so it's hard to attest for its validity. Heck, it's been said before, Nurgle can go both ways. The play styles are vastly different though and dedication is key in executing them succesfully.

[dines]

Good post from Diddley and while I have no experience on nurgle, the thread is quite interesting. Both Smeborg and Carnis should however ignore each others posts and look at Matts questions instead. He tries to extract useful info for the two separate builds rather than bash on either one.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

It pays off to read the thread from the start again. You'll notice Jimmy Fantastic on page 1 with a remarkable quote "Nurgle are an awful team. You should only use them if you really love the idea of them, and don't mind losing!". Keep that in mind when you read his posts.

This is true, because the OP had been playing BB for 6 weeks and typed "This leads me to think one of three things. 1) The team is awful"
I was answering in terms of short TT leagues and for new players compared to Orcs they are indeed awful.
The biggest advantage they have over Orcs is access to claw and regen neither of which really kick in till higher TV.
When I first saw the CRP Nurgle struck me as the new power team due to the nerfed apo, 9 regen guys, stronger players than chaos and easy claw access.
I played them in TT but realised that their starting roster is very weak and it's pretty hard to develop your team at a similar pace to your opponents and also difficult to get a good record vs players of equal skill.
Online TV matched games is where they shine though, I haven't altered my stance on Nurgle short term but if they can make it to decent TV that is where they become the most feared team in BB.
As to your other points guess what - Slayer style requires a very focused play. Dedication to optimal positioning is key. You're actually aiming for a 1-0 win, but a classic 2-1 grind is your back-up plan.
Also the idea of Nurgle offense being weak is a little erroneous as it only applies early in team development, once you have a few skills they are just as good as other bash teams at moving the ball.

[Carnis]

Also the idea of Nurgle offense being weak is a little erroneous as it only applies early in team development, once you have a few skills they are just as good as other bash teams at moving the ball.

Yea, hence a 4-0 victory is not out of the question at all..

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=playe ... id=7903837
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=stats ... =10&race=0

[Smeborg]

But then, if you were done, why write this condescending and 'seemingly neutral' (your signature style) 2nd chapter 'in my defence' or at all?

No condescension intended. What I meant was: Why should a coach have much respect for a style of play that he has not witnessed? Would you be happy with that?

All the best.

[mattgslater]

Lay off the flame war already, Smeborg. We're finally getting back to topic. Now you're instigating.

[Smeborg]

The biggest advantage they have over Orcs is access to claw and regen neither of which really kick in till higher TV.

Jimmy - that is a slayer perspective, of course, and the advantage is a potential one (i.e. in future skill development). I agree of course that Claw is a powerful skill against AV9 teams. The stymie perspective, however, is that the main advantage Nurgle have over all teams (including Orcs) is their starting mutations (Tentacles, D-Pres, F-App, Horns). These are advantages that Nurgle have from the first game, can exploit in practical play from the first game, and can re-inforce with skill development. They work at all TV levels, not just at higher TV.

I offer this difference in perspective as the probable reason why you and I differ on the merits of Nurgle early in leagues. I suggest the difference in perspective translates into different results in practical play during that period.

All the best.

[Wanchor]

Playing referee is condescending too.

I've finished in first place in my short-run tabletop league, using Nurgle, two seasons in a row now. Actually had a better win-loss record in the first season, when the team began skill-less. Nurgle is quite playable at low TV, just not in a boring clawpomb way.