(Un-)Living NecroTacticum: Necros vs the world of Blood Bowl

[MKL]

I'm surprised by the Jump Up on the Flesh Golem

[Maverick]

Especially as 1st skill

[Digger Goreman]

This was a past league team that surprised me also when I looked at examples for comparison to the "norm" I am hoping to establish.... The choices both did, and didn't, raise a brow....

Fend is golden on blodge ball carriers.... I often run fast scoring screens and, if you don't roll a six (five or six with tackle) when you hit my wolves and ghouls, I score in two turns with relative ease.... Keeps annoying types from blitzing and staying in contact....

Jump up on the golem was an opportunistic experiment to get extra blocks in for my all too often double downed fleshies.... Not convinced... but a first, or second, doubles pick might reap rewards: Block + JU, or Blodge+JU....

[Digger Goreman]

So, let's introduce doubles and ask, "which is better?"

Zombie (1st skill) block vs guard
Zombie (2nd skill) block + tackle vs block + guard

Zombie kick, DP vs kick, guard

Zombie Wrestle + Fend vs Wrestle + Guard

Would you DP a zombie (on the first skill), hoping for doubles to add Sneaky Git? What if you didn't get the doubles on the second skill, what normal skill would you take?

Finally, what progressions would you stop for +mv, +av, +ag, or +st?

[Digger Goreman]

Same considerations for the ghouls:

Gl (1st skill) surehands vs block vs wrestle (essentially, which ghoul do you start first, the carrier or the safety)?
... And should surehands come first for the carrier?

Would you delay the surehands + block, or wrestle + tackle progression for ANY doubles (and which ones?)

Would you delay either progression for +mv, +av, +ag, or +st...?

[Digger Goreman]

For wights it seems to be the question of skill progression order:

MiB, guard, tackle....

Would you interrupt for a double, and which one(s)?

What if a double comes on the first skill?

What would a two-skilled, both doubles, wight look like?

How bout a three-skilled, two doubles wight?

Are there any stat upgrades you would not take?

[Digger Goreman]

I'll ask anyway, but I think the majority have conceded that the Golems should follow either Block + Guard, or
Guard + Block, with MiB in third IF ever reached....

Are doubles ever justified?

What stats upgrades are worthy?

[Smeborg]

I think Dodge is a possible doubles choice on Golems, but I would probably not take it before 3rd skill (after Block and Guard). A well-positioned Golem with Block, Guard, Dodge could be particularly annoying. With Tackle to follow.

Our league uses chosen MVP, so getting a Golem to 2 skills is very doable, 3 is a stretch.

All the best.

[MKL]

So, let's introduce doubles and ask, "which is better?"

Zombie (1st skill) block vs guard
Zombie (2nd skill) block + tackle vs block + guard

Zombie kick, DP vs kick, guard

Zombie Wrestle + Fend vs Wrestle + Guard

Would you DP a zombie (on the first skill), hoping for doubles to add Sneaky Git? What if you didn't get the doubles on the second skill, what normal skill would you take?

Finally, what progressions would you stop for +mv, +av, +ag, or +st?

For Zeds, my first skill is +St or Guard or Block/Wrestle, in that order.
Guard is the best double skill, followed by Side-Step or Dodge.

I would skip Sneaky Git for Guard even on a Dirty Player!
DP+Guard is an ugly combo, but Necros are always starving for Guard

[MKL]

Same considerations for the ghouls:

Gl (1st skill) surehands vs block vs wrestle (essentially, which ghoul do you start first, the carrier or the safety)?
... And should surehands come first for the carrier?

Would you delay the surehands + block, or wrestle + tackle progression for ANY doubles (and which ones?)

Would you delay either progression for +mv, +av, +ag, or +st...?

First I build the ball carrier, then the safety (a block-Wolf is a *decent* safety).
Don't yet made my mind if taking Block or Sure Hands first. tried both, and I always feel the lack of the other skill.

Double on a rookie Ghoul is problematic. Maybe I skip the double if it's the first skill on the first ghoul, otherwise I can go for Guard.

I would always take +St and +Ag.
+Mv? It depends on the overall team development (am I starving for Block and Sure Hands? Or is the team churning along nicely?)
+Av I skip.

NB: I play in 15-30 games leagues, not in permanent/eternal environments.

[Digger Goreman]

Our league uses chosen MVP, so getting a Golem to 2 skills is very doable, 3 is a stretch.

All the best.

The incredible amount of league variance, and the failure to provide any control group, led the bbrc to accept a spurious concoction of cobbled data (via plasmoid) and return the FG to 110k.... Indeed, chosen MVP is an incredible tool to eliminating FGs being eternally blockless....

[MKL]

For wights it seems to be the question of skill progression order:

MiB, guard, tackle....

Would you interrupt for a double, and which one(s)?

What if a double comes on the first skill?

What would a two-skilled, both doubles, wight look like?

How bout a three-skilled, two doubles wight?

Are there any stat upgrades you would not take?

My normal skills for Wights are MiB, Guard, Stand Firm. Tackle is a later choice.

First skill is Guard or MiB. I skip doubles or +mv/av.
Later, a double would be Dodge.
A 2-double/1 normal skill Wight? Guard, Dodge, Side-Step.

I would always take +St or +Ag. Skip +mv/av (+mv is nice, but I need a lot of other skills first)

[MKL]

About Flesh Golem... what Smeborg wrote:

I think Dodge is a possible doubles choice on Golems, but I would probably not take it before 3rd skill (after Block and Guard).
(...)

[Smeborg]

Indeed, chosen MVP is an incredible tool to eliminating FGs being eternally blockless....

Chosen MVP seems to work rather well for us, perhaps because our leagues last typically about 20 games. Perhaps in a more "perpetual" environment, distortions might become apparent. But in our environment, chosen MVP just leads to pleasantly accelerated development. It does indeed mean that laggards like Golems (and their many friends) can be given 1 or 2 skills. A by-product is that skill development becomes viable and powerful for nearly all teams - not necessarily the case with random MVP. We have a tradition of having many different races in the league - this year I think it was about 16 races for about 20 participants.

All the best.

[Digger Goreman]

So, we are mostly agreed with the following build as optimal?

Types
Z1(main build i.e., at least three copies) block, tackle, guard on any double
Z4 kick, dp
Z5 wrestle, tackle
On all zombies take +St, suggest ignoring other stat increases

Gl1 surehands, block, kor
Gl2 wrestle, tackle
On all ghouls take +St and +Ag, suggest ignoring other stat increases

Wt1&2 MiB, guard, tackle (in some combination) dodge on any double, sidestep on two
On all wights take +St and +Ag, suggest ignoring other stat increases

Fg1&2 block, guard ignore double on first skill, dodge on doubles after block
On all golems take +St and suggest ignoring other stat increases

Ww1&2 block, dodge, SS immediately interrupt progression for MiB on first available double
On all werewolves take +St and +Ag, suggest ignoring other stat increases

Therefore, the ultimate(?), stat-less team would be*:

Z block, guard, tackle
Z block, guard, tackle
Z block, guard, tackle
Z kick, guard, dp
Z wrestle, guard, tackle

Gl surehands, block, kor
Gl wrestle, tackle, guard

Wt dodge, sidestep, tackle
and/or
Wt MiB, guard, tackle in some combination

Fg Block, dodge, guard, MiB
and/or
Fg Block, guard, MiB

Ww MiB, block, dodge, sidestep
and/or
Ww block, dodge, sidestep, coach's choice

*Understanding that zombies and golems rarely get two and three skills....