A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual)

Want to know how to beat your opponents, then get advice, or give advice here.

Moderators: Valen, TFF Mods

Post Reply
User avatar
DoubleSkulls
Da Admin
Posts: 8219
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 12:55 pm
Location: Back in the UK
Contact:

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by DoubleSkulls »

dode74 wrote:
DoubleSkulls wrote:However I now think the real mechanism to increasing diversity in long leagues is actually going to be something to level attrition across teams.
You may be right, but it may well also be the case that we are setting the bounds too tight. We won't get equality until all the teams are 0-16 6338 GASM 50k, so it's probably worthwhile saying what we're after - what is the level of diversity we would like?
A very good question. Like I said earlier I think the diversity is about right at lower TVs - the only teams that have less than half the average number of games are tier 2/3. If we could spread that to all TV bands then I'd be satisfied. I'd want to reduce the preponderance of the top 3 teams too - which to my mind means something that targets their commonality - Claw.

I think the boosting fouling only really works if you make fouling ignore Av, so a flat 8+ for example. Even then it still favours teams that have deeper benches and don't suffer too much bloat for it.

Reason: ''
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
dode74
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie
Posts: 2565
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:55 pm
Location: Near Reading, UK

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by dode74 »

@swilhelm73 - Maybe, but I really can't see it being a big enough payoff. Do people with DP players (which is basically what you are advocating) do this already? I believe not.

@DoubleSkulls - The current low TV balance is there because of the fact that the rosters are reasonably balanced at low TVs. Those which are poor at low TV (e.g. Chaos) are taken because of their perceived potential to be good at high TV. What you would need to do is nerf some teams short term for long-term gains, and possibly boost some teams short term for longer term nerfs, which is basically what plasmoid is trying to do with NTBB.

Reason: ''
swilhelm73
Star Player
Star Player
Posts: 750
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:57 pm

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by swilhelm73 »

dode74 wrote:@swilhelm73 - Maybe, but I really can't see it being a big enough payoff. Do people with DP players (which is basically what you are advocating) do this already? I believe not.
Generally when I face an opposing team, one consideration is how to handle opposing stars. And yes, I try to work my DP into position to hit them when possible. I'm very much a strategic fouler tough, so I won't bunch a large group of players, generally, to get a good foul at the expense of giving up position. Once the DP is gone I foul less, because it is harder to justify.

Improving fouling doesn't just slightly increase the damage per foul it also slightly increases how often you should foul.

Reason: ''
dode74
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie
Posts: 2565
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:55 pm
Location: Near Reading, UK

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by dode74 »

Of course, and I'm not saying that buffing fouling won't help, but that it won't help enough.

Reason: ''
Megr1m
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:38 am

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by Megr1m »

plasmoid wrote:@Megr1m
[Puts on the Captain Picard face]: The line must be drawn here! :wink:
Seriously, MB has had one nerf in its history, I don't think it needs another. Finesse teams can do fine against teams with just mighty blow. IMO.

Except both you and 2xSkulls seem to have missed the point somewhat. The suggestion is not about increasing the ability of non-bash teams to beat bash teams, but about decreasing the longevity of ClawPOMB pieces, and giving the bash players something to take into consideration, instead of just spamming MB on everything that can take it.

Isn't the whole point to break up the synergy of the trinity, and one of the most obvious ways (or so it looks to me) is by introducing an element of decision making into the combo, alongside an element of risk.

Reason: ''
fidius
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:03 pm

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by fidius »

This is a total brainstorm-level idea from a relative BB noob, in reply to Doubleskulls' comment that attrition levels might need to be equalized somewhat. I agree with this idea. The thing about bash vs finesse is that finesse takes it both ways: they take many more armour breaks, AND the casualty table gets rolled on more often because of MB, resulting in more permanent damage (which in my mind is the real issue behind why certain teams don't get played). It's a double-whammy they can't easily reciprocate without a string of doubles skill rolls.

What if MB was changed such that the +1 to Injury option was changed to a 7=KO, sort of a reverse Thick Skull. (If the victim had Thick Skull already, the two effects would cancel.) This would still remove the player from the pitch, but would equalize the Cas chance back to 1/6. Note that bash teams would still tend to roll on Injury more often since finesse teams' armour is that much less, and more hits tend to be delivered by bash teams.

And/or, a new Agility skill could be introduced that replaces the lost MB effect, something like 'Shiv' or 'Low Blow': +1 to all Injury rolls. This would increase the chance to roll on the Cas table, thus increasing the frequency of permanent injury. It would also make finesse teams more hurty toward each other -- which somehow seems an acceptable side effect.

With both of these changes in place, bash could still select Shiv/Low Blow on a doubles (and it would work in tandem with MB, with the end result more powerful than currently), but it's one more skill to get to achieve maximum killitude, thus pushing out other more situational/opponent-specific skills.

Obviously this is a nerf to bash and a boost to finesse. Politically it would probably be necessary to nerf finesse or buff bash, but I'll leave that to better minds than mine. :)

As you can tell I'm big on preserving the fluff as much as possible, and from a fluff perspective I don't think Piling On is defensible. And it's not socially acceptable either -- in the 2 TT leagues I'm in, it's frowned upon, but if you do take it, you take it on your killer and you only have one such player on your team. One idea I had for "new" PO was to change it to an assisting skill, like Guard. For every PO player assisting a block in no tackle zones, the hitter gets +1 to the armour roll. If this is seen as too powerful, it could be useable only if the PO player went prone, or if they spend their action to do it.

Some crazy ideas, FWTW.

Reason: ''
MKL
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:11 pm

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by MKL »

fidius wrote: (...)
What if MB was changed such that the +1 to Injury option was changed to a 7=KO, sort of a reverse Thick Skull. (If the victim had Thick Skull already, the two effects would cancel.) This would still remove the player from the pitch, but would equalize the Cas chance back to 1/6. Note that bash teams would still tend to roll on Injury more often since finesse teams' armour is that much less, and more hits tend to be delivered by bash teams.
(...)
Or make M-Blow work like Stunty: 7=ko, 9=Badly Hurt

Reason: ''
User avatar
Jimmy Fantastic
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 780
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:38 pm

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by Jimmy Fantastic »

That is a great suggestion MKL, best idea in the thread apart from my remove PO buff fouling idea.
But once again I have to ask, why do people hate Chaos teams so much?

Reason: ''
Chris
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2035
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 1:18 pm
Location: London, England

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by Chris »

Because they get better than other bash teams who have no counter?

If there was a universal way of getting to the same efficiency of CPOMB there would be a lot less problems. As it is bash and hybrid teams fall away fast from the chaos teams as they first can't compete with the bash and then can't compete at all if the claw team gets half a dozen average rolls as now you are down to 5 vs 11 and you don't have ag 4 to make up for it.

Reason: ''
User avatar
Jimmy Fantastic
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 780
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:38 pm

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by Jimmy Fantastic »

Why was there never this amount of hate for Orcs and Dwarfs in LRB4 then?
I think it's the Orc and Dwarf coaches whining cos they are the coaches who never wanted their mens to die.

Reason: ''
swilhelm73
Star Player
Star Player
Posts: 750
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:57 pm

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by swilhelm73 »

Jimmy Fantastic wrote:Why was there never this amount of hate for Orcs and Dwarfs in LRB4 then?
I think it's the Orc and Dwarf coaches whining cos they are the coaches who never wanted their mens to die.
The big change from LRB4->5 was removing aging and using an on field method to get rid of av9 players, namely claw. It is indeed interesting that as you note some people do have a problem with *anything* ending their av9 player's careers.

And one thing to consider, the low TV Dwarf/Orc v Chaos matchup is as one sided against chaos as the reverse at high TV is for chaos.

Reason: ''
User avatar
Lunchab1es
Star Player
Star Player
Posts: 613
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:21 pm
Location: Georgia, USA

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by Lunchab1es »

swilhelm73 wrote:
Jimmy Fantastic wrote:Why was there never this amount of hate for Orcs and Dwarfs in LRB4 then?
I think it's the Orc and Dwarf coaches whining cos they are the coaches who never wanted their mens to die.
The big change from LRB4->5 was removing aging and using an on field method to get rid of av9 players, namely claw. It is indeed interesting that as you note some people do have a problem with *anything* ending their av9 player's careers.

And one thing to consider, the low TV Dwarf/Orc v Chaos matchup is as one sided against chaos as the reverse at high TV is for chaos.
It is worth keeping in mind that an overly strong nerf to Chaos and their CPOMB might mean simply replacing high-TV chaos with Dwarfs and Orcs...

Reason: ''
Looking for: 5th ed Human Thrower #2
dode74
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie
Posts: 2565
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:55 pm
Location: Near Reading, UK

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by dode74 »

Just to be clear, the aim of this thread is not to make matchups more even but to make the popularity (as measured by games played by a race) of races more even, particularly at high TV. Currently that spread isn't particularly good but is better than it was under LRB 4.
As shown here there is a very weak correlation between a team winning lots of matches and a team being popular, whereas there is a strong correlation between a team giving many and taking few casualties and it being popular. That is the area we think might need rebalancing in some manner. It might be, as swilhelm73 and I have suggested, that there is no easy solution to this within the game rules while maintaining the wide spread of diversity of team types, but we can set ourselves some goals for the desired racial diversity and work towards them.

Reason: ''
User avatar
DoubleSkulls
Da Admin
Posts: 8219
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 12:55 pm
Location: Back in the UK
Contact:

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by DoubleSkulls »

dode74 wrote:@DoubleSkulls - The current low TV balance is there because of the fact that the rosters are reasonably balanced at low TVs. Those which are poor at low TV (e.g. Chaos) are taken because of their perceived potential to be good at high TV
Agreed. I think my point was that looking at match ups across all TV levels is therefore misleading - the problem is at higher TVs so we should focussing our attention on the higher TV match ups. Including stats from all games does not give the right impression.

Reason: ''
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
dode74
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie
Posts: 2565
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:55 pm
Location: Near Reading, UK

Re: A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual

Post by dode74 »

Actually we already said you can:
If you're limiting to 2k+ TV I don't think you can say that at all without checking for a correlation between games played by a team overall and games played by a team at 2000+, otherwise you run the risk of there being another factor (such as large variations in TV by certain teams meaning that there are teams which don't get to stay at high TV for long and are therefore under-represented in the 2000+ stats.
That said, on looking for a correlation between games played overall and games played at 2000+, we find r=0.87, so a strong correlation.
I'll grant that the correlation isn't perfect, but it is strong. I'll take a look at games played per team later to see if there may be anything to support the hypothesis that fragile teams get to high TV and then parked for tournaments. It may be that this disparity over TVs is a MM-only issue, too - there is no TV segregation in leagues.

Reason: ''
Post Reply