3 Khemri questions

[fidius]

DP is very valuable on Khemri Skeletons but only once you have the killer skills on other parts, imo. Trying to foul when you're still 11 v 11 is difficult, unless your positioning is flawless. If I pick up my Khemri team again I may try Fend as first skill, just to lend some additional mobility.

KoR on Throw-Ras is a skill I learned to appreciate after losing multiple games to deep kicks. If you don't take it, you will need to scatter players all over your backfield on every kickoff -- and doubly so when you face elves or Skaven, especially with Kick. Such a formation is not always ideal when you're on Turn 4 or 5 and would like a good chance of a return score. And it can really hoop you on the Blitz! if they mark and freeze you up.

[Chris]

Anyone rate Kick? (I stick it on a thrower as they hang back.)

[crimsonsun]

Anyone rate Kick? (I stick it on a thrower as they hang back.)

I put it on my back up Throw Ra though its far from a priority against doubles/stats on them Throw Ra's are the one player that want doubles/+stats desperately and have very limited options if they don't start rolling such increases. Kick itself is useful but not fantastic with Khemri it allows you to either force your opponent to keep players back from the centre when playing against bash or to move the ball quickly against Elves with a shallow kick. Khemri are pretty poor at taking advantage of Kicks however and are often better off holding the line and there defence than running forwards to pressure the ball.

[Smeborg]

THE CLASSIC KHEMRI DILEMMA AS DISCUSSED ABOVE
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I had a good second match, beating a Skaven team 2-1 (not a classic grind, I got an early and somewhat lucky turnover TD on my second turn with my Journeyskelly). In the post-match, my second Blitz-Ra rolled an 11. Here is the team:

4 rookie Tomb Guardians (one with 5 SPPs, another with -MA)
B-Ra with 8 SPPs (Mighty Blow)
B-Ra with 8 SPPs (6,5...)
6 rookie Skellies (one with 3 SPPs, one with 2 SPPs)
3RRs, 2FF, 40,000 in Treasury

After some hesitation, my inclination is to take the +AG on the Blitz-Ra and to make him the team Runner, to forget about Thro-Ras on this team (I have not bought any yet) and to immediately buy a Skelly with my remaining cash (to give me 13 players in just my 3rd game). Also, to take early Dirty Player on one of the Skellies (we use chosen MVP). The more I think about it, the more this seems like a strong team in the making, albeit with a very marked style of play (even more of a one trick pony than your average Khemri team).

The advantages of this strategy would be:

- A good and reasonably resilient Runner, who will not take long to get to his second skill (Sure Hands).
- A more resilient team (in my experience, the Thro-Ras are the first to fly into the dugout - Thick Skull worked 3 times in the last game).
- Low TV (base TV of 111 with 14 players) and the prospect of inducements.

The disadvantages I can see are:

- A less killy team (but still with 1 blitzer/killer, his development has already started).
- A weak offense in the event that the Runner/Blitz-Ra is incapacitated.
- A slower team (aggregate MA of 53, nearly as bad as Dwarfs).

It is unusual for me to get SPPs on Skellies at the beginning of the league. The Journeyskelly got the turnover TD in the last game so I just had to buy him. And another way of looking at AG3 on Khemri is that if you don't take AG3, you will never get AG4! If the team already had developed Thro-Ras, I suspect decision-making would be more difficult and possibly different. The team can expect to play about 20-24 matches, so early AG3 seems a decent prospect. Obviously I will look to replace the crippled Tomb Guardian fairly soon.

Let me know your thoughts.

[crimsonsun]

However by not taking Throw Ra's your massively reducing the movement of your overall squad, lets face it Ma6 is just about enough to maintain a sustained offensive threat while Ma5 is plainly too slow in a ton of circumstances. On the other hand if your taking the throw ra's in addition then your Tv is going to be bloating early and for what a single non sure hand ag3 player? Seriously? Any elves that took an early stripper will be loving you!

In a new khemri side I dislike more than 13 players, in fact I wont go to 14 until all 13 are levelled to avoid bloating, this is because while many inducements are rather unimpressive for Khemri to utilise they are devastating against us, so keeping your Tv trim is really important for avoiding being subjected to opposing inducements and thus it devalues the ag3 player further.

[Big A]

As I have previously stated and I do note others differing views. But please for the love of Nuffle TAKE THE AG!

I find the suggestion of not taking the AG in a league environment based on min-maxing baffling.

I'm not sure if everyone is providing advice (in this thread there have been a few people take the ag on a blitz ra) isn't based on tabletop/ structured league. Which smeborg is playing this team in. (i'm not sure if you've said the number of games) I'm suspecting some of the advice that every blitzra needs to be a killer, is heavily influenced by black box games on fumbbl and matchmaking on cyanide. Not limited leagues. I'm convinced that the AG is the best short term choice and pretty sure you can't go wrong in the long term. You haven't got a ball carrier.

My advice is based on league play and what gives the team the best chance of winning games. You may have other goals like hurting other players.

Regards
A

[crimsonsun]

As I have previously stated and I do note others differing views. But please for the love of Nuffle TAKE THE AG!

I find the suggestion of not taking the AG in a league environment based on min-maxing baffling.

I'm not sure if everyone is providing advice (in this thread there have been a few people take the ag on a blitz ra) isn't based on tabletop/ structured league. Which smeborg is playing this team in. (i'm not sure if you've said the number of games) I'm suspecting some of the advice that every blitzra needs to be a killer, is heavily influenced by black box games on fumbbl and matchmaking on cyanide. Not limited leagues. I'm convinced that the AG is the best short term choice and pretty sure you can't go wrong in the long term. You haven't got a ball carrier.

My advice is based on league play and what gives the team the best chance of winning games. You may have other goals like hurting other players.

Regards
A

Just to clarify I do not play in Match making environments and only play in persistent leagues, between my UKBBL and the OCC teams alone I've played more than 200 Khemri matches. Also let me make clear its not about min maxing in the same sense as those Tv matched situations but about TV optimisation which will optimise your performance by reducing or removing unused or other below optimum choices and while in lower divisions or with tier 1 teams Tv optimisation is far from critical once you hit the top tiers of a league you'll need any and every edge possible poor or unused skill/statistics are bloat and can give away critical inducements, this is true of any team but Khemri who are handicapped to begin with its even more critical.

Once you hit 200+ Tv you need to evaluate every players cost against performance and seek to make sure everything is tailored to its full potential. Injuries need to be weighed carefully against diminished performance or ability to remain upon the pitch. For example multiple doubles upon players where the benefits begin to stack heavily against costs, everything needs calculating and assessing because all it takes is 3-5 bloated skills/stats and your giving away a Wizard every match for free.

When weighed like this with the already overpriced cost of the Blitz Ra's against the cost of skills to actually effectively make use of the +Ag against the cost and effect of other players on offer its not a contest. To get Sure Hands on the blitz Ra cost 2/6 possible increases and 60K in Tv putting the base cost to 150K is the effectiveness really equal to 2 Throw ra's + 10k, who provide additional resilience speed, utility and coverage. You also wasting key Strength access which does not synergise at all with +ag and Sure hands (which is vital to protect against Strippers) leaving you with general access skills or bloat. If they had natural Agility skill access it may be worth considering or with mutation access with would be fine but lacking these two things your creating a sub par gimped player that costs silly amounts of Tv (A wizard itself)..

Question why do people not use Wights as the sides main ball carrier unless +ag is acquired? Would you give a wight sure hands as its first skill and pay 60k for the privilege?

[spubbbba]

Question why do people not use Wights as the sides main ball carrier unless +ag is acquired? Would you give a wight sure hands as its first skill and pay 60k for the privilege?

The 2 teams that can take wights have much better ball carriers available in the shape of MA7, AG 3 dodge ghouls or MA8, AG3 wolves with agility access. If the rest of the team had AG2 or 1 then I suspect most necro and undead teams would use wights as ball carriers. In fact back in lrb4 days when they just had general access it was not that uncommon to see sure hands as a later skill if they didn't roll doubles or stats.

To Smeborg I'd certainly be tempted by AG3 on the blitz-ra, especially with the lack of thro-ras on the team. As I've mentioned before AG3 also makes him a more versatile blitzer, MB, tackle and PO are all great for taking out player. But you have to be able to actually hit them first. AG3 makes him a little more mobile and better at hunting down key players. People often get into a set mindset when they play against khemri, so a player that can dodge might cause them a nasty and vital surprise. With AG3 he will skill up quicker to his next skill as well since he can get spp's from blocking and scoring/passing.

[Smeborg]

On the other hand if your taking the throw ra's in addition then your Tv is going to be bloating early and for what a single non sure hand ag3 player? Seriously? Any elves that took an early stripper will be loving you!

As stated above, the plan if I take the +AG would be to run the team without Thro-Ras, at the expense of speed, naturally, but with an increase in resilience.

As for Strip Ball, we're talking probably 1 or 2 games before the +AG Blitz-Ra gets Sure Hands. I am not aware of any Strip Ball in the league yet, and the choice in the short term is between an AG3 ball-carrier with Block, and an AG2 ball-carrier without Block. At the moment, the latter is easier for elves and their ilk to bring down.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

Just to clarify I do not play in Match making environments and only play in persistent leagues...

Once you hit 200+ Tv you need to evaluate every players cost against performance and seek to make sure everything is tailored to its full potential...

When weighed like this with the already overpriced cost of the Blitz Ra's against the cost of skills to actually effectively make use of the +Ag against the cost and effect of other players on offer its not a contest...

Question why do people not use Wights as the sides main ball carrier unless +ag is acquired? Would you give a wight sure hands as its first skill and pay 60k for the privilege?

As stated above, the team is not playing in a perpetual environment, and if it were, then the decision-making process would no doubt be different. As stated above, I expect the team to play 20-24 games at most. I doubt the team will get to TV200. 170 to 180 or thereabouts is probably more realistic.

Looked at in terms of possible TV bloat, I would be getting +AG and Sure Hands for "free", as 6 points of TV is the same as I get by not buying Thro-Ras (at the cost of speed, naturally, but balanced by increased on-pitch resilience).

In reply to your last question concerning Wights, if Ghouls were AG2, then I would most likely use a Wight as the ball carrier.

AG3 + Block + Sure Hands (shortly) + Kick-off Return (later) would give a reliability to the offense which cannot be achieved with AG2 Thro-Ras; the difference between a 1 in 9 chance of failing to pick up the ball and a 1 in 4 chance is big. This would allow a different style of play.

But don't let me stop you arguing your corner, I appreciate it.

All the best.

[crimsonsun]

Hey its all opinion at the end of the day anyway, its not that I've not tried other +Ag players on a Khemri side, its just for me I don't get any benefit from it game to game. even with multiple on the same team, Movement however or Ag on the Throw Ra's is golden while Strength is obviously amazing on every Khemri player type.

In a short 20ish game environment I can see the appeal slightly more though with low tv's and a lack of heavy development from the better bash sides I'd build for Strength pure and simple! 4 Guardians and Blitz Ra's with Guard as there first skill, plus any doubles from the Skeletons and there won't be a team in the league that can over power you or wouldn't fear your pure strength. Obviously Mighty Blow gets more spp but it doesn't do much to win you games compared to Guard, and as a second skill I'd give the Blitz Ra's tackle as they are going to need it. Getting those 6 Guards is not as difficult as it sounds though I would not be against the Argument of 5 guards and a Killer (Fastest I've got a Killer Blitz Ra to 51 spp for MB, Tackle, PO & Juggernaut is 11 games) which is easily achievable especially if you get those Guards up again.

Just my preference but obviously do what you want and let me know how you get along..

[Smeborg]

Well, I'm also thinking of taking Mighty Blow first on the Tomb Guardians. The reason is the high prevalence of AV7 in our league. I accept that Guard first might work better in some environments, especially more bashy and/or high AV ones. In an environment where many opposing players are AV7, my short experience to date with Khemri suggests that M-Blow may win more games than Guard (winning on numbers, especially on offense). I've also noticed that coaches can be reluctant to mark Tomb Guardians with M-Blow, giving the team a nice boost in mobility. Early D-Player on a Skelly for the same reasons. Don't get me wrong, I like Guard a lot on this team.

Definitely Tackle as the second normal skill on the Blitz-Ra with M-Blow. There are lots of AV7/Dodge players out there in this league ('Zons, Skaven, Undead etc.).

Let's see how I get on - I can always change any part of this strategy mid-stream if things are obviously not going right.

All the best.

[SunDevil]

Smeborg, you have it right. If AV7 is prevalent in your league, Mighty Blow is the right first pick for all TGs and BRs, possibly even Skels - though I still prefer Guard on them for doubles.

And at least 1 or 2 Dirty Players! Best of luck, go Khemri!

[Smeborg]

I had another seemingly lucky win in my 3rd game, against Skaven (TDs: 1-0, CAS: 5-2). For the 3rd game in a row, I kicked and managed to turn over my opponent on the 1st drive (for a shutout, followed by a more or less classic grind in the 2nd half). I seem to have worked out the basics of deploying raw ST on defense, the turnovers have all come from a good press (followed by a bit of luck, naturally, this time it was a roll of 5 by the M-Blow Blitz-Ra to pick up the scattered ball in a Tackle Zone).

The +AG Blitz-Ra did not use his AG3 once in the game (he caught the ball on a High Kick and a 5). He got a TD and a CAS, taking him to 13 SPPs and close to his next skill-up. Meanwhile a Tomb Guardian got Block. A Skelly died (good, that Regen), a rookie with no SPPs fortunately. I had a lucky money roll (80,000) and decided to go the whole hog (2 Skellies for a 14 player squad, no Thro-Ras). A reason for 14 players is that the urge to foul is strong in this team. In the last game I was fouling Skitter, couldn't get him off, but stunned him a couple of times to advantage.

Here is the team now:

Tomb Guardian: Block (7 SPPs)
Tomb Guardian: - (5)
Tomb Guardian: - (0)
Tomb Guardian: - (0)
Blitz-Ra: +AG (13)
Blitz-Ra: M-Blow (12)
Skelly: - (3)
Skelly: - (2)
6 rookie Skellies
3RR, 3FF, TV123

Shame about the wasted MVP on one of the Tomb Guardians, but I should not complain, this has all the look of a "lucky" team, both in play and in development. The speed of Blitz-Ra development is impressive (only 1 MVP between them).

QUESTION: KICK
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Does Kick have any value on this team?

All the best.

[Big A]

I think kick would be of limited value particularly in the short term. The real advantage of kick on slow teams is against other slow teams. Dwarves/Nurgle/Khmeri. If you are under a bit of pressure to score with 2-3 turns left in a half you can trust in your defence a bit more.

Kick can only go on a skeleton in your team. In the short term I would be looking at getting a dirty player ASAP. kick would be a late skill pick for me.

Crimsonsun- I note and respect your experience playing khemri. I too have played a lot of khemri games.