Cyanide releases their Khorne Roster

[Nephron]

Hi,

that sounds like a really intense match and the end is kind of funny What are the odds of the ball scattering on the Bloodthirster and him catching it?
The injury on the leader hurts, but at least its not -AV anymore. That would have gotten him fired, correct?

I can share two matches again.

First up was the dreaded match against Woodelves. To make it short, they ended my streak. I lost 2:3. I again had big problems in getting players off the field. I always struggle against fast teams as you know I just dont know how to defend against them. I was pretty intimidated by one of his Wardancers (+1STR). I had bad luck on a few important rolls, but it was my own fault. I didn't protect my ball carrier enough against his fast players and it was down to 0:2 after the first half. I could have scored a TD in turn 8 but failed on a GFI.
In the second half I got several of his players of the pitch but it was not enough to hold the draw.

Today I played against Highelves, another team I had respect for. He had 3 players with STR4, two of them with Guard.
I received and scored pretty safe in turn 8. After that, things got kind of out of hand. I had the upper hand in players (11 against 9), but he still had his 2 STR4, Guard players.
I tried to stop his offensive but he managed to get a Catcher into the Endzone. He threw and one of my players intercepted the ball. I moved him forward a bit but did not secure him enough. I tried to surf his catcher in my endzone which failed due to a GFI 1, RR 1. He blitzed the ball free and threw to his catcher. Again one of my players intercepted. Neither my opponent nor I could really believe it ^^
In the end I won 2:0 (7:0 CAS).

If all goes correct, I should be playing in the next higher league next season. Also at the moment, my team is the most brutal of the entire league (56CAS this season).
The last match will most likely be a DefaultWin, since my opponent has left the league due to personal reasons. So I get another 16SPP for free.

I got 2 levelups out of the match against Highelves. A Cultist with Block, Guard got a normal roll. First I thought about Tackle or Dauntless again, but Fend might be a valid option too. What would you recommend? I might wait until I know what my group next season looks like.
Also my Herald with Block, MB, Tackle and -AG also got a normal roll. I am torn between PilingOn and Guard. What are your thoughts?

If you are interested, I could post my complete team as it is now, after I get the DefWin next week!

[Smeborg]

that sounds like a really intense match and the end is kind of funny What are the odds of the ball scattering on the Bloodthirster and him catching it?

The odds are 1 in 48 (1/8 for the scatter x 1/6 for the catch). There's also a tiny chance of the ball being thrown in by the crowd and scattering back to one of the players.

I got 2 levelups out of the match against Highelves. A Cultist with Block, Guard got a normal roll. First I thought about Tackle or Dauntless again, but Fend might be a valid option too. What would you recommend? I might wait until I know what my group next season looks like.

I would likely pick Fend, I think it would be outstanding, as it would protect the player and free him up to deliver his Guard to where it was needed.

Also my Herald with Block, MB, Tackle and -AG also got a normal roll. I am torn between PilingOn and Guard. What are your thoughts?

I am inclined to pick Guard before P-On for this team, but that is not based on experience. I think P-On can be over-rated on some teams - on this team I find I am often a bit short-handed, so I am inclined to prefer having my players standing. On the other hand, P-On would make a very handy slayer indeed. So I am open-minded.

If you are interested, I could post my complete team as it is now, after I get the DefWin next week!

Yes, I would like to see the roster, we are still in the early days of Khorne strategy, I find these things rather interesting.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

The dialogue with Nephron has made me realise something to do with P-On and Wrestle.

The 2 skills do not appear to match well on the same team. I recall an Orc team with some Wrestle Linos and a slayer Blitzer with TacklePOMB/J-Up [and also Frenzy IIRC]. The team did not perform adequately, too many sunbathers at any one time.

So I will probably forego P-On on my current Khorne team (I like Wrestle very much on the Linos and think it is the way to go). Time will tell.

All the best.

[Nephron]

I think you are right.
Having both PO and Wrestle in the team could become a problem. I dont have any Wrestle in my team so I can't give first hand experience but your argument is solid. There might be a way around it, if you go for Wrestle and JumpUp on the Bloodletters. So at least they could move pretty normal even after standing up. But it is still a problem with the Cultists. also I am not sure if I would want my Bloodletters to be on the ground intentionally and if so, in what order skills should be taken to get the best effect.

Regarding PO, I really like it on my team. My Herald with MB, PO and JumpUP that recently got Block is just outstanding. I use PO with him regularly and get really good results. I think PO might be less usefull if you use your Bloodthirster for blitzing most of the time. Since I rarely blitz with him, PO is more important. So far it worked well.

I think I will post my team now, instead of next week. The 16 additional SPP might have an impact, but it will most likely not change much.

#1 Cultist Frenzy, Block, +1AG, Niggling (20SPP)
#2 Cultist Frenzy, Block, +1AG (26SPP)
#3 Cultist Frenzy, Block, Guard + normal roll (possibly Fend) (32SPP)
#4 Cultist Frenzy (2SPP)
#5 Cultist Frenzy, Leader, Block, Tackle (37SPP)
#6 Cultist Frenzy, Block, Tackle (23SPP)

#7 Bloodletter Regeneration, Horns, Juggernaut, Block, Dodge, Guard (33SPP)
#8 Bloodletter Regeneration, Horns, Juggernaut, Block, Guard (28SPP)
#9 Bloodletter Regeneration, Horns, Juggernaut, Block (12SPP)
#10 Bloodletter Regeneration, Horns, Juggernaut, Block, Dodge, Guard (35SPP)

#11 Bloodthirster Juggernaut, Claw, Horns, Frenzy, Wild Animal, Loner, Regeneration, MightyBlow, Guard (25SPP)

#12 Herald Horns, Juggernaut, Frenzy, MightyBlow, Tackle, Block, -AG + normal roll (54SPP)
#13 Herald Horns, Juggernaut, Frenzy, MightyBlow, JumpUp, PilingOn, Block (70SPP)

TV 2030 (without the new skills)
3RR, 1Apo, 1AC/CL, 7FF.

I am at 9 wins, 1 draw and 3 losses this season. Will be 10 wins after the default one next week. So the team will have a total of 28 matches played. The team developed pretty well this season and it plays a lot better than last season. Having Block on almost every player and a few players with Guard really changed a lot. I still have to think a lot, because of all the frenzy, but that is still part of the fun

If you have any comments or questions regarding the team, feeld free to ask!

[Smeborg]

That's a fine team, Nephron. I like the rounded development. And quite a few players will reach their next skill soon.

I have a question: How do you manage without ball movement skills (S-Hands, Pass, etc.)? I'm guessing that you use the two +AG Pit Fighters to move the ball. But do you not face Strip Ball players in your environment? And don't you get into difficult situations where you have to move the ball when out of RRs for the turn?

And another question: How come you don't blitz much with the Bloodthirster? I've only played 3 games with one (and in one of these he was a Merc), but I find I blitz with him a lot - it's what he likes to do, what with ST6 from Horns + Jugs/Frenzy.

All the best.

[Nephron]

I plan on getting SureHands on one of my AG4 players asap.
I had a Cultist with SureHands and Pass. He got -AV but I kept him. Shortly after that, he got -AV again and I had to kick him. The next to levelups on Cultists were the 2 +AG.
Having no SureHands was a real big problems against the Woodelves, where StripBall is pretty much standard. I also would like the safety of the built in RR again. So it is more because I lost my former SureHands player that I dont have it atm, than delibaretly not choosing it. So far I got lucky and picked up the ball without problem with on of my AG4 Cultists.

As for the Bloodthirster, he really underperformed in my first season. I blitzed with him pretty often in my first matches, but got no CAS at all. It was always Stunned or KO. Was probably just bad luck but it all came together in a game against Lizardmen, where I rolled 7 1s for Wild Animal, with 6 or so being blitzes. That pretty much cost me the game.
After that I got a bit superstitious und did not want to rely on him as much. Thats when my Heralds pretty much took over blitzing. I only use the Bloodthirster for blitzing now, if I can really afford it. Otherwise he has his nice psychological effect on the enemy and is still a huge roadblock. I blitz a bit more often with him against teams with high AV, where his Claw comes in handy, but otherwise I use my Heralds.
His potential might be a bit wasted on my team, but so far it worked for me.

[Smeborg]

Thanks, Nephron, that's clear, I had forgotten about the S-Hands player who was forcibly retired, you mentioned him previously.

My environment is quite a friendly one this year, fewer ST teams, instead a mixed bag: 2 Necro teams (1 played), Lizzies (played), Gobbos, 'Flings, Dwarfs, Pro-Elves, Chaos, Vamps. One match against each of those, then in the second half of the season a re-match against half of them and half of the following: Woodies, Necros, 'Flings, Skaven, Humie, Undead, Dwarf, Chaos, Lizzies. The WEs, Skaven and at least one of the Necro teams can be expected to be quite nasty (assuming of course, that my team makes it to the upper division).

I chose Khorne before knowing which opponents I would be facing. As is common in our tabletop league, I now have to build a team capable of dealing with all kinds of opposition. It will be interesting to see how Khorne performs against some of the semi-joke teams when well coached (Vamps, 'Gobbos, Flings). At least there are few teams to out-muscle Khorne (no Orcs, Nurgle, Khemri for example). But there are quite a few fast and agile teams against whom it will be hard, if not well nigh impossible, to hold the ball.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

As for the Bloodthirster, he really underperformed in my first season. I blitzed with him pretty often in my first matches, but got no CAS at all. It was always Stunned or KO. Was probably just bad luck but it all came together in a game against Lizardmen, where I rolled 7 1s for Wild Animal, with 6 or so being blitzes. That pretty much cost me the game.
After that I got a bit superstitious und did not want to rely on him as much. Thats when my Heralds pretty much took over blitzing. I only use the Bloodthirster for blitzing now, if I can really afford it. Otherwise he has his nice psychological effect on the enemy and is still a huge roadblock. I blitz a bit more often with him against teams with high AV, where his Claw comes in handy, but otherwise I use my Heralds.
His potential might be a bit wasted on my team, but so far it worked for me.

My Bloodthirster, Tiny Tim III, rolled 7 1s for Wild Animal in his first match (not including occasions when he needed a 4+). It cost me 3 TDs. I have learned from it, but still use him a lot. And I don't have any Heralds yet!

[Smeborg]

I rather like Khorne, I think the main reason is because they produce wild and intense games.

For those coaches out there thinking of coaching a Khorne team, I discern a particular Khornate quality: unlike other teams where you learn to play the team as a more or less harmonious whole, the Khorne team turn seems usually to revolve around whether one (or at most two) players will perform. Quite fluffy, I think. It has its implications for development, too.

[Edit: Khorne are not so much a team, as an "organised rabble" (famous words of a cricket commentator describing the Pakistan team while they were winning the World Cup).]

All the best.

[Nephron]

I agree with you, games with Khorne are really intense most of the time.

Frenzy their strongest advantage, but also the biggest weakness somehow. You really have to think a lot in case you dont down an opponent with the first block.
You are right about the overall performance also I think. In games where the players I depended on underperform, I really struggle. That might be one reason I dont use the Bloodthirster as much anymore, since his WildAnimal adds to that problem.

I also usually blitz very early in my turn because of that too. You often need to set up safe blocks with it. Would you agree?

In other news, I got my Default Win yesterday and 2 more players leveled up. My last remaining Level 1 Cultist will get Block and my Bloodletter with Block also got a normal roll. Now I am torn between Dodge and Guard again although this time, I am leaning more towards Dodge again. I have 5 Guardplayers atm. 6 would be nice, but Dodge is good too. Not sure about that one yet.

In the end I was able to get 2nd place in my group and will advance to a higher league next season. Games should get harder then Also my team will have a TV of 2110, so I will probably face a Wizard or worse every game, but it cant really be avoided. I could try to lower the TV by dropping a RR or player, but I am not sure about it. At this point I would rather drop a RR than a player. 13 seems to be a good number. I often have a player MNG, since the team gets hit quite hard. Having at least one player as a reserve feels necessary. But with Leader and nearly all players having Block now, I thin dropping a RR might be an option to get the TV down a bit. What do you guys think?

[MKL]

Hi Nephron,

Not a Khorne coach here, but don't you think that 5 Guards isn't so much at 2100 rating/1st division?
I understand the Dodge appeal, but I would be afraid of being over-guarded by the opponent, a scary situation for teams with a lot of frenzy (thinking from Norse experience). There are elven teams with 4-6 Guards
Your thoughts on the matter?

[Nephron]

Hi MKL,

as I said, I am not sure yet what I should take. Of course running into mass guard would be a problem, especially with all the Frenzy Khorne has. But somehow I am always afraid for my Bloodletters when they are in contact, since they only have AV7
Of course that is in contrast to them getting guard in the first place, but Dodge does protect them somewhat. I only took Guard over Dodge on my last Bloodletter, because it felt really needed. They are key players for the team, but also the most vulnerable.

I think I will have to wait until I know my opponents next season before I decide. In terms of TV I am pretty much ahead of most of the teams in the league. I think the average is around 1800-1900. I got lucky this season with not so many strength based teams, so mass Guard wasnt really an issue. The same goes for teams with high strength like Lizardmen.

Progression really took off this season but the decisions do not get easier ^^

[MKL]

You got a touchback. Out of curiosity, who do you choose to carry the ball?
I would have been tempted to use the Bloodthirster...

It didn't occur to me to give the ball to the Bloodthirster. I gave it to a Bloodletter, the one who was poised to be the Runner anyway (centre of my half). The Bloodthirster was poised to take lots of blitzes, I don't see how I could have got to the end zone with him carrying the ball, he would need to take a blitz every turn in order to move semi-reliably downfield. Hole-punching by him would be very predictable, he would need to run backwards after punching a hole, he would be easy to trap with Frenzy forcing him into tackle zones (or if he failed to knock someone over). If he were to take a blitz action without blocking, then forward movement would not be possible against a simple linear defense.

My experience of handling the ball with other Big Guys is bad, this is probably why it did not occur to me. It's a very different situation fo (say) an intercept.

All the best.

Thanks Smeborg. I agree with your assesment, hence the expression "tempted to use the Bloodthirster"
I'm always tempted to give the touchback to some blocker type to force-skill him, but in the end I chicken out, unless the opponent is already decimated

[MKL]

Hi MKL,

as I said, I am not sure yet what I should take. Of course running into mass guard would be a problem, especially with all the Frenzy Khorne has. But somehow I am always afraid for my Bloodletters when they are in contact, since they only have AV7
Of course that is in contrast to them getting guard in the first place, but Dodge does protect them somewhat. I only took Guard over Dodge on my last Bloodletter, because it felt really needed. They are key players for the team, but also the most vulnerable.

I think I will have to wait until I know my opponents next season before I decide. In terms of TV I am pretty much ahead of most of the teams in the league. I think the average is around 1800-1900. I got lucky this season with not so many strength based teams, so mass Guard wasnt really an issue. The same goes for teams with high strength like Lizardmen.

Progression really took off this season but the decisions do not get easier ^^

Thanks Nephron.
Thinking about it, a blodge Bloodletter is the player most likely to reach 31 spp in a "short" time.

[Nephron]

I used both my Bloodletters with Blodge, Guard a lot for scoring before they had Guard. They usually were they players out of contact which could make the TD when I handed the ball off to them. Dont know if that would be necessary now with my 2 AG4 Cultists though, but it is a nice option.
I could potentially go from the 5 Guards that I have now to 7 Guarders, with the decisions I have yet to make. I will wait until I know my opponents next season before I decide.

Concerning the Bloodletters, I will try out a different route in another league (started a few weeks ago) where I also play Khorne. I was thinking about JumpUp for the Bloodletters. So far I am thinking about going Wrestle, JumpUp and then Guard. Not having Dodge might be a risk and using Wrestle instead of Block does take some use out of Juggernaut, but I wont be blitzing with them very often. JumpUp should open up a few new ways of Blocking and gives them better Movement. I should consider Dodge, but not sure at what point. So far I think by the time they reach their third skill, I will really need Guard so I would go for Dodge after that but it also makes them pretty vulnerable. What do you guys think about that?
To have some Guard I wouldnt go the Killer route in the Heralds with this team. There I would go for Block, Guard as first skills and rely on the Bloodthirster for blitzing.
I just recently decided on using the Bloodthirster this way which didnt really work out with my initial setup (was without Bloodthirster). I will get him asap. Hopefully he will perform better than the one I have in my other league

Going with Wrestle on the Bloodletters, I think I should stick with Block on the Cultists, do you agree? It is sort of an experiment, but I am curious to see how the team will perform. The league setup is pretty interesting too. Only one team of every type is allowed (+Stunty Versions). Matches are every two weeks so one season takes nearly a year. I won the first two matches (Goblins and Ogre) so must of the "fun-teams" are out of the way.

I often end up with a Bloodletter as a ballcarrier, because they stay out of contact the most so I might skill 2 of the different and without Guard. That might lead to a lack of Guard so I am not really sure about that point yet. What are your thoughts?