All about Dark Elves

[mattgslater]

I like the debate guys, and thanks for the help. I think i need at least one Stripballer asap. Neither of you thinks the skill should be put on a Blitzer, which kind of makes sense to me. Why? Also any ideas on any of my lineup postions in the protected spots in an inverted Zig or a half Zig? I always waffle on this, and its killing me. I just don't understand the methodology behind where you want the WE's and the blitzers in a general sense.

FWIW, I think Blitzers are the best strippers. They start with Block and MA7, and they don't have Frenzy or Stab or P access. Besides, you need all your linemen to kick the ball and soak up the grind; you can only make your kicker into a hunter when he's at/near peak development (he needs a blocking skill or he'll get hurt, and with your low ST and mobile-but-not-fast attitude, you'll struggle until you replace him).

Once you have the Side Step Blitzers and Line-Elves (minimum 3) to man the 101 Inverted Zig, you never need any other eleven-man defense. The three SS'ers are for the wings and nose. When you have just two, you can run a Half-Zig, with SS'ers at inverted wing and inverted end, and a Blodger at the conventional wing, preferably supported with Guard on the flank. But the trick to the Inverted Zig is:

1) The Winger has SS, so can play in front of the flank with no fear of getting pushed. So you can put an AV7 player in the flank spot and not worry about gratuitous beatings.

2) Since the midfielder is free (that is, blitzing him gets your opponent no advantage), the action wants to focus on your safeties. But your safeties are almost directly behind the LOS: just one push on a Side Stepper, and he falls back into the centerfield column, forming a spine with the (Side Step) wingers and the (free) midfielders; nowhere to go. Any side the opponent doesn't screen off gets partitioned out, and the assault begins.

3) Wingers are Blitzers, linemen are Line-Elves. One midfielder is a line-elf (Kicker); the other can be anything, as can the safeties and the flankers. Until you've got your inverted Zig going, AV7 wants to be in the safety spot, or failing that, wants to support the winger. Once I have both SS wings and both Witch Elves, I really like running the Witches on the flanks, both for psychological impact and because that way one Witch is generally free to rush.

[Carnis]

I think the best stripper is a runner, because he doesn't start with block. Dodge/Wrestle/Strip is the build. The sad part is that already takes 31 spp and that's a long shot with AV7, no useful starting skills and 6 better players in the team to hog spps with (4 blitzers, 2 witches).

[mattgslater]

I see the Wrestle bit. But P access is rare and valuable, and I'd hate to waste it that way. For me, one is an offensive specialist (Pass, Dodge, and then Accurate, Safe Throw and Catch in any order), and the other is a coverage man (Nerves of Steel, Dodge, Pass Block, with Catch at 51 if so lucky). Runner #1 not only develops rapidly that way, but also improves everybody else by giving you more different options without interfering with your comp rotation, much like a High Elf Thrower does, only two skills behind the curve.

I think it's better to build three different "sacker" players of different types, perhaps a Witch, a Blitzer and an Assassin or Lineman.

[Asperon Thorn]

Still not with you on the Runner as a huge improvement, though I'm totally a fan of them on the team and I was ambivalent about DE Throwers. . . .What made the Runner a better player?

He wasn't suppose to make the team better. He was suppose to make the team distinct. It was also to create a positional that coaches would choose on a starting roster or tourney roster. A thrower never made it on there, both because of the price and the fact that DE already struggled to bring as much speed as other elf teams (In tourney's.)

The argument for years involved the two extremes:
a) DE could not be competitive without a thrower late in leagues.
b) Giving them another MA 7 player would make them overpowered. (Hence, dump off rather than something like sure hands. (My preference))

The intent of the change is that you are not suppose to play DE like you would any other elf team. You can choose to, but it made going down a bashier-runnier type game a quicker development route than previously.

The argument comparison was the struggle to get people to actually try it rather than theory it to exclusion. There is an intangible benefit that you can not mathematically figure or theory of having Strip ball in three places on the field. . .It is similar to doing the math and saying that MB allows for a Suarus to get his second skill faster. But the math doesn't seem to consider that the Suarus will actually throw less blocks per game than he would if he went with block first.

Once I have both SS wings and both Witch Elves, I really like running the Witches on the flanks, both for psychological impact and because that way one Witch is generally free to rush.

Prior to SS the witch runs the flank with a blitzer and a line elf. . .it's a 3 man squad. The witch can still toss players off the side, you just have to ensure that line elf moves into position to prevent her from being pushed the next turn. The blitzer is there to exploit whatever the witch does. Or just cover a hole.

Blitzers tend to be a lot more surgical and utility than the other players on the team. I use witches to create chaos, linelves to fan the flames, and blitzers to take advantage of the mess.

Asperon Thorn

[mattgslater]

He wasn't suppose to make the team better. He was suppose to make the team distinct....The intent of the change is that you are not suppose to play DE like you would any other elf team. You can choose to, but it made going down a bashier-runnier type game a quicker development route than previously.

Cool. Success, then. FWIW, I quite like the change. I don't think it's an improvement, but I do think it's fluffy, distinctive and fun, and because it fits the cost curve so neatly, it sees more action. Having 0-4 marginal AV7 positionals with unique assets also helps justify the ten-positional roster. I like rosters with tons of marginal positionals built around a decent core with a clear drawback and good lineman value (whatever the cost). Humans, Orcs, Norse and Dark Elves are the best examples of this; Goblins, Undead and any team with a Wild Animal (except maybe Chaos) also fall into this category, to a lesser extent. People play those rosters, because they can win. There's a lot to like. But there are also some decisions to make at the quality line, players with tempting assets that you wouldn't want to field all the time, you know? So you see (and you actually see in league play) different builds with the same race. And not just because somebody doesn't know what he's doing or got sidetracked with freaky stats.

Prior to SS the witch runs the flank with a blitzer and a line elf. . .it's a 3 man squad [as opposed to a 2 man squad].

And people mock me when I insist that Side Step is perhaps the best skill in the game. If you use it right, it's like having a player and a half, at least the first 3-5 instances. If you spread SS across your line, then you'll be relatively sure your prone linemen will always be able to dodge into the clear or stand and lend an assist without rolling any dice or hanging on contingent blocks. Not only that, but once you have SS, the first doubles option is also a cheesy power combo. Oh, and then there's the need for maximum structural support on offense, for the free-flowing keep-away game you need to be able to manage. That is why I insist you can't afford to spam Strip Ball.

[Asperon Thorn]

Ironically, I have played so many years without a thrower or a runner that I have a hard time fitting a runner into my line up.

My first real exposure to it was with the Cyanide game. . . The problem is that I always maintained these linemen specialists, as opposed to runners and throwers, that I would roll out for certain occassions. . and trying to figure out which one(s) to drop for a runner(s) found me wanting. . .

Asperon Thorn

[mattgslater]

Defense first, so here's how I see it.
Line: 3x Lineman (or 2x and a -MA or -AG Blitzer)
Wings: 2x Blitzer
Midfield: Lineman (Kicker), Blitzer or Guard player
4x free/safe: 2x Witch, probably a Blitzer, and choice of Runner or Assassin
2-3x reserve: A backup lineman, a Runner (offensive starter), and either another backup lineman or a Runner/Assassin, or if I've already got 2-3x Guard, then maybe a Grabber, who's an offensive starter.

My current DE team has an MA6 Blitzer, which I find kind of liberating, actually. It means I can build him as a lino with Block: Side Step, Dodge. That way, my defensive backfield will be two Witches, a Runner and an Assassin. Haven't got there yet.

I haven't found Runners to be nearly as conducive to my offense as their HE equivalents. For one thing. there are multiple players on the HE roster (usually 5-6) with key deep distributor skills, like Catch/MA8 or Pass/Safe Throw. Those guys build rapidly and don't hog SPP, much like a big guy. Dark Elves have no such specialists; Runners can build into the role, but without multiple skills they're not much better than linemen. Worse, Dump-Off is an outlet skill. So you have a 0-2 position that is supposed to play the mutually exclusive roles of passer and outlet, on an expensive team that needs to have a clear defensive function for at least twelve men.

At least both roles like some of the same skills. I've yet to take Catch on a Dark Elf, but for me High Elf Thrower #1 goes Dodge-Accurate-Catch-Dump Off (I have a policy of designating the guy who needs the 1SPP the most as my retriever; the Thrower stays out of range).

[Smeborg]

I agree that the DE Runners are not particularly strong player types, but I prefer them in practice to the Assassins (which I tried last season). At least the Runners bring welcome speed (I think it is worth having 8 MA7 players on this team).

My plan this season for the Runners has been to treat them as plain Runners (with the option to hand-off or pass), as follows:

#1: Leader, Dodge, [Sure Hands]
#2: Dodge, [Sure Hands, Kick-off Return]

I feel the plan is working fine. #1 now has Leader, Dodge, +1MA. #2 was forcibly retired, then got re-hired and now has just Dodge. I treat the Dump Off as a "nice to have" skill, rather than as a basis for the Runners' skill development path.

[Carnis]

I see the Wrestle bit. But P access is rare and valuable, and I'd hate to waste it that way. For me, one is an offensive specialist (Pass, Dodge, and then Accurate, Safe Throw and Catch in any order), and the other is a coverage man (Nerves of Steel, Dodge, Pass Block, with Catch at 51 if so lucky).

Hmm, I disagree, but this is plain theorycraft on my side, as I've only managed a DE team beoynd 20 games in LRB4.

The 8 MA7 players bit rocks, yes.

The runner #2 I don't see myself picking in a lineup. NoS is beneficial rarely without catch, and I value block above it for a catcher. Pass block is a nono.. I picked it once on my slann and never saw any1 pass anyway, and he's easy to dodge out so you'd need 3 pblocks. Runner 1 is fine, although I'd pick surehands personally just to make him a defence player too.

[mattgslater]

Once you've got your main themes mostly taken care of, Pass Block works well as a one-off safety skill against teams lighter than you. If you can limit your opponent's exit strategy to one avenue, your Pass Block player will always be in position to lock out the best target(s). You can't tell if it's working by whether your opponents are scoring.

The major downside to Pass Block is that it only works when your opponent is either not paying attention or in desperation mode. The major upside to Pass Block is that it works well to make your successes concrete, to prevent silly plays that don't have good odds but still render your assault hollow when they do work. That does not merit a major investment, but it does merit a minor one, like one late skill. That player is more versatile and easier to skill than an Assassin, filling a very similar role.

I think format matters a lot, as does opposing team mix. I've always run 13-man rosters, but I've salivated at the idea of putting together a 14-man engine. At 14 players, TV tends to spiral, but such a huge slough of options open up that it may be worthwhile. After all, once you have 12 men, each player you take lets you have two specialists without interfering in your development. At 13, that's a kicker and a retriever or ace. At 14, you can add an Assassin and an outlet. Still, I'd only do it in a format where there were a lot of high-value teams running around.

[Uldreg]

Thanks for the advice guys. I was playing my nose tackle all wrong in the inv zig. I am playing my lineelf w the str as a DE now. My first game of the season was a fiasco, we could not get our computers to connect, settled for an unplayed draw vs a coach I probably could have beaten. Next was the lesser of two dwarf teams, lost 2-1. I had a chance at a score in turn 2 after a blitz but my +1 ag blitzer missed a 2+ dodge after scooping up the ball. I had my rookie blitzer and +1 str, dodge blitzers both leveled. Here is where it gets difficult. I rolled an 11 for the rookie, should I go dodge or take the +1 ag? I feel that I am kinda bloated due to all the stat increases already. Also my str blitzer rolled a non double ten. I am tempted take either av for durability or the mv. Yet sidestep seems like a skill I need, and again this team is already bloated. Any thoughts?

[Carnis]

Non double tens, ignore imho.
Take the +AG.

[Asperon Thorn]

MA 8 blitzers are the bomb. . go for the MA, play him mid (just off the LOS as a blitzing Outside Linebacker) and not having sidestep is as much of an issue.

Also take the AG . .and try and spread some Spp's to your lineelves. . . seems like your positionals are soaking it up and that is very very bad for DE.

Asperon Thorn

[mattgslater]

Side Step is king. The more Side Step you have, the stronger your formations.

MA8 is nice to have, but the big breaks are between 6 and 7, which you can roster, and between 9 and 10, out of your (theoretical) reach. Oh, and between any two numbers up to 5, but again that doesn't apply.

[Smeborg]

MA8 is nice to have...

In theory, yes. But in practice I find it very, very common when playing Dark Elves to be 1 point of MA short of what I want to do with the MA7 players. That's why I will take +1MA on a 6,4 on Witch Elves, Blitzers and Runners.

All the best.